Episode Transcript
[00:00:16] Speaker A: Older women, likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They're to teach what is good and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, to be self controlled, pure, working at home, kind and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.
A virtuous woman is a female who nurtures and cultivates those in her life with gentle strength, wisdom, and joyful partnership under God's authority. Welcome to this episode of Word and Flesh. We're glad that you've joined us. That's the definition of a virtuous woman that we're going to be working on today and discussing. This is part two of our series on a virtuous woman.
Really? It's our series on men and women and God's design for that. And this is part two of our discussion about a virtuous woman. So thanks for joining us. And if you haven't listened to part one, that's a couple, two or three episodes back, go back and look for that either on our YouTube channel or in the podcasting app that you're using. Give that a listen first because that'll actually give you honestly a lot more context for this conversation. And this conversation will make a lot more sense. So if you have, if you're not there, just push pause. It's going to be painful, but go back and listen to part one of a virtuous woman and then come back and rejoin us for part two, because we're going to be working really on this on the latter half of that definition that I just gave. As we discuss today again, welcome to Word and Flesh, a podcast from Riverview Baptist Church for Riverview Baptist Church that continues to be a tongue twister for me. I don't know why it's hard, but joined today by elders Michael Bean and Ryan Anderson. Good to be with you, fellas.
[00:01:58] Speaker B: Let's do it.
[00:01:59] Speaker C: Always a pleasure.
[00:01:59] Speaker A: Yeah, I think we should just go ahead and. The elephant in the room. Let's just get it out right now. Everybody already notices it. We have upgraded equipment.
[00:02:08] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, There you go. That is the elephant.
[00:02:10] Speaker A: The. You were like, what is he doing?
[00:02:13] Speaker B: It doesn't make us look better, but it does make us sound better.
[00:02:15] Speaker A: No, there's nothing that can make us look better. But we're at our top. We're at the pinnacle.
No, but yeah. Little pop filters on the mic. So if you've been so tired, whenever Ryan goes. The problem with people is their persistence in pursuing whatever that's going to be reduced significantly now. So there you go. That was free. Okay, so today we're working on the latter half of our definition of a virtuous woman, and really what we're leaning into. We talked a lot in our prior episode about a female, obviously, who nurtures and cultivates those in her life.
And then we talked some about the gentle strength portion as well. So, yeah, we did a lot of that. Is there anything that we want to just real quickly, like, super quickly touch back on that as we move forward to the latter half of this definition? Anything you want to add on any of that or anything you want to say?
[00:03:13] Speaker C: I think the only recap that I would give, just real briefly is, is that we're saying, I think distinction and difference do not mean hierarchy in terms of value. When we think about the worth of a woman, the glory of a woman, the goodness of a woman, the fact that she's made in God's image, all of those things are true. And I think that's just worth saying one more time, especially as we're about to jump into what it looks like for a woman to live with wisdom and to submit to good godly authority.
[00:03:45] Speaker A: That's good. I'm gonna add on to that because a verse I was looking at this morning, actually, 1st Peter 3. 7, talks to husbands and wives and says very much what you just said. It says, likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since so acknowledges this, like, distinction in creation and in design, and refers to the woman as the weaker vessel, but then says, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life.
So he goes and reiterates that point, that, like, there's distinction, there's authority in the home, and, like, how God created it. But he goes, do not forget, husbands, that she is an heir with you in the grace of life. So, yeah, I think that's. It's good to, like, hold both of those.
[00:04:32] Speaker C: Absolutely. That's a good biblical tension. Yeah.
[00:04:34] Speaker A: Good. Okay, so we're moving on to kind of part two of our definition, which is the wisdom and joyful partnership under God's authority.
What are some of our kind of anchor ideas or texts that you want to look at as we talk about this? Because we're going to get into some practical, too. That's what we try to do. Sometimes episodes go a little longer because we're like, oh, we didn't get to the practical yet. But yeah, so what are some anchor ideas or texts that we want to kind of lean into with this second part.
[00:05:02] Speaker C: Yeah. I would say in terms of wisdom, I think, I mean, the Proverbs 31, Woman is the virtuous woman.
And especially the line that essentially her children rise up and praise her.
The reason that happens is because she is a woman who has not just spoken wisely, but actually lived wisely, that she has displayed this over the course of her life. And so I think Proverbs 31 is a great place to go to for what a wise woman looks like and does and how she lives.
[00:05:37] Speaker A: Okay, go ahead, Ryan.
[00:05:38] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's just important to say, you know, what is wisdom?
It's applying the word of God to everyday motherhood, marriage, ministry, whatever, whatever, you name it.
[00:05:49] Speaker A: That's good because. Yeah, the way I heard wisdom defined back in a philosophy class in college, actually, but it was a. It was a. It was a Christian college. And it was actually, I thought a good definition, because it was taken from Scripture, is the idea of skill applied to living.
And the underlying idea there is living skillfully within the way God designed the world to work.
So I'm just really agreeing with what you're saying there, which is that wisdom means being able to align all your life and actions and duties and everything you do underneath God's design in a way that works itself out well, and wisdom is the thing that allows him to do it.
[00:06:31] Speaker C: Yeah, no, that's good. In my mind, one of the starting places of wisdom for both male and female is a teachable spirit. It is a willingness to say, I don't have it all figured out.
And so, Lord, teach me, help me move through whatever the next test is or trial or thing that's hard for me. Help me to do this your way.
I think a wise woman understands, here's what it means to be a mom. I'm going to live into that. I'm going to do that to the best of my ability. But then to also study her children and to know at different ages they're going to need different things from me as a mother. And so I'm going to lean into that and anticipate.
My teenage son needs me to do some things very differently than I did when he was 5.
And so I need to learn what does a teenage son need from a mother. And I'm going to invest in that. I'm going to read it. I'm going to study God's word, I'm going to ask other women. And so I think it's the understanding of your role and a willingness to not grow comfortable, but anticipate what is next. What does my husband need next from me? What does my child need next from me? What does my place of work need next for me? So that there's a proactiveness in the nurturing, in the loving and the leading that God's called you to do.
[00:07:53] Speaker B: I think also what you're saying is a wise woman is not afraid of good structure.
[00:07:57] Speaker C: Absolutely. Yeah.
[00:07:58] Speaker B: In fact, she builds a good structure for her home. Because you cannot be proactive without structure.
[00:08:06] Speaker C: Correct.
[00:08:07] Speaker B: You are only ever reacting if you don't put structure in your home, in your marriage, wherever.
Structure is a good thing. And I think a lot of our culture is very afraid of structure because a lot of parents, in the name of good parenting, have said, well, let me let my kid define wherever they want to go.
And there's a sense in which, yeah, God has gifted our kids with certain desires and affections and skills and gifts that as a wise woman, and her dad as well, and the kid's dad. But we're talking about women in this case are to direct that energy with good structure and with good authority and with good leadership, not just say, well, wherever you go is a good way.
Wise women are not afraid of structure.
[00:08:59] Speaker C: Yeah, I think that's good. And the other thing I'm just getting at, and I think this is true male and female.
Anyone that I've ever considered wise that has really been able to help me take my next step has been able to look essentially at me, discern where I'm at, and say, here's where you need to go.
Here's the next step for you. Here's the piece that's missing.
A wise woman knows how to do that for her husband, for her children, for whoever it is that God has placed in her life and called her to help her to nurture or to come alongside.
And so I would just say that's one thing, you know, women, we talk about men being passive. I think sometimes women can be passive if they are not at least thinking about how do I proactively meet the needs of the individuals God's put around me.
[00:09:50] Speaker A: I'll just add that I agree with that and that I think this is actually kind of to that last thing you said, which is, I think a godly woman should be looking for how she can bring the wisdom that God has given her into other women's lives. Absolutely.
And I think for some, that's easier than others. But. But I think we should encourage women to view part of their calling as a woman to strengthen, encourage, and impart genuine wisdom, biblical wisdom to other women. And because I think that it can be tempting. And this again, goes then back to what Ryan was just saying. It can be tempting to be like, I don't know, I figured out my way, but they have their own way. And everybody just kind of ends up as these isolated little pods, you know, of. Of. Of households, which the household is sort of the fundamental unit. But it's like, well, you know, as God has brought blessing and flourishing to your household because of what he's done and the wisdom that you've gained, you actually have a biblical obligation. Yeah. To lean in women. Women in this case, as we're talking.
[00:11:02] Speaker C: That is the point of Titus, too.
[00:11:03] Speaker A: Yeah. You have a biblical obligation to the other women in the church to.
Again, I don't think it always means, like, to call them out all the time. I mean, calling out might be part of that. In other words, admonishing or whatever, but also can just be sort of encouraging.
It could be, like, extremely practical things. Right. Like, the kid's got this crazy rash when this thing keeps happening. I'm trying to be, like, really nitty gritty and all these different kinds of things that. Those are a kind of wisdom too. Right. Because if, you know, in the stage of mothering for most women, there's a million things a day in which she goes, I don't really know what to do here. Right.
And you grow in that as you go. And a lot of times you grow through, like, the frustrations and pain and whatever else. And so there's just all those become really, I think, big opportunities for a woman to then encourage, again, a woman who's not that far down the road yet.
So my encouragement to women would be to seek that out, not expect it to just kind of like, well, I don't know. Probably. I don't know. Maybe I'll say something if it comes up or.
But to really seek out and not hoard the wisdom and experience that God's given you. Again, it's not saying that you don't have anything to learn either, or not saying that. I think that you should approach that with humility as well. And always recognizing, well, everybody's situation is. Is different. And sometimes there are generational gaps. And I think there needs to be a lot of, like, listening on both sides. An older woman actually should listen to a younger woman going, this is what I'm having to walk through now. And I think that might be a little different. And the older woman goes, that is different here's what's not different, though, and can share that. So I'm just saying that's my encouragement to women who have walked any length at all down the road of being a wife, a mother, a godly woman in whatever genuine wisdom God has given, look for opportunities to encourage and build up other women in that. Because I think, well, I mean, it literally is a command in God's word to do it. And also that strengthens the church in a way that I think maybe we don't really even talk about all that much.
And this is not just like a women's Bible study. I mean, it's good to study the Bible. But I think that a lot of this, again, we go back to wisdom, being skilled. A lot of this is actually how to practice, put into practice the living out of godly womanhood.
[00:13:36] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:13:37] Speaker A: And so again, that. Because that's. That's what Titus is, or Paul in Titus is getting at.
[00:13:42] Speaker C: Right.
[00:13:42] Speaker A: Like he doesn't give a super long list, but train the young women. Right?
[00:13:49] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.
[00:13:50] Speaker A: Training implies, you know, what it implies, implies all kinds of things that you need to get better at. Right.
I've worked on this a lot and grown in this a lot. And here's an area, I think. Here's a way to do this better, I think. Right. So anyways, I won't belabor that point, but I just mean that to be an encouragement to women to look for opportunities to genuinely pass wisdom along to other women who have not walked that far yet.
[00:14:13] Speaker C: That's good. Yeah. Discipleship is not a classroom. It's life on life.
[00:14:18] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
[00:14:20] Speaker C: Well, I think what I want to try to do now then is. So we've kind of unpacked some of that definition on looking at gentle strength and wisdom.
But to move on to the joyful partnership under God's authority piece, to really talk about what is submission. Where does that need to happen in the life of a woman?
And obviously, I think this goes without saying, we'll unpack this more as we talk about men. But submission is real for men, too. There's just a different place for it to happen, different context. So the two major structures that God has given women, in terms of submission, where do women submit?
Obviously, the first one is probably the one that we're all thinking of.
That's the home and the husband that she is to submit to her husband. But then secondly, the other place is the church that a woman is called to submit to the leadership, the elders, the pastors in her church family. And so I think Those two spheres really capture the primary two places that a woman is called to submit. And so what that does mean, and I think this is worth clarifying, it does not mean that all women must submit to all men all the time.
My wife Tara is not called to submit to you guys the way she's called to submit to me.
[00:15:46] Speaker A: Right.
[00:15:47] Speaker C: And so for single women, you are not called to submit to a boyfriend or to some other guy that's in
[00:15:55] Speaker A: your life or just like a random. Or a random guy. I mean, this is actually a big distinction between what the Bible says and Christian culture versus some other cultures.
[00:16:05] Speaker C: Islam.
[00:16:05] Speaker A: Right. And others that would go. Women are a lower class from a standpoint of like submit to all men kind of thing. Right. That's actually not what the Bible says.
[00:16:17] Speaker C: That's correct.
[00:16:17] Speaker A: It does build submission into the marriage relationship, into the church. Right. It builds actually into children with their parents. Right. So there's other areas of authority and submission. But yeah, it's not. I think it's good to distinguish. It is not saying a woman has to submit to every man that she encounters. Right.
[00:16:35] Speaker C: And I think sometimes the culture caricatures Christian views of submission that way. And that's one of the reasons I wanted us to go ahead and just clarify that at the beginning.
[00:16:46] Speaker A: Debunked.
[00:16:48] Speaker B: Checkmate.
[00:16:49] Speaker A: Yes.
No, it's good, it's good. So, okay, so then let's talk through those. Ryan, Help.
You have some thoughts about submission, don't you?
[00:16:59] Speaker B: Apparently, yeah. Yeah. So start.
[00:17:02] Speaker A: Start with which one you want to start with? You want to start with church or marriage?
[00:17:06] Speaker B: Oh, I think we can start in marriage.
I think that for two people who are chasing after Jesus, who are living in accordance with his word, empowered by the Holy Spirit, this should feel joyful and right.
The world has convinced us that submission is not the proper way. And it's a mechanism of conservative control and patriarchy and all this stuff. And the reality is, you know, in general, as I watch Christian marriages that I believe to be healthy, it's obvious that the wife is following her husband's leadership.
But it's not so abstract where it's just such this. Oh, you have to remind her all the time that she's to submit and she's need to be reminded all the time that her husband's in charge. And it just works.
Now there are times where it's like, hey, babe, I got to take the lead here. We're going to go this way. I love you. Let's go.
But it doesn't need to be so Abstract. Where it feels like this bigger thing than it is. It's just how Christian marriages work and need to work. And it should feel natural now at times, because of the fall, it's going to not feel natural.
[00:18:23] Speaker A: Right.
[00:18:23] Speaker B: Your desire shall be for your husband, or the husband's going to domineer. But hopefully those should be exceptions to the general rule, the. That this is just beautiful and works. And I just think it's really important to say that submission doesn't mean that my wife Abby doesn't have a voice in the decisions of our marriage and our parenting and our home and our ministry.
At the end of the day, you know, I have two votes and she has one, but it doesn't really ever have to get there. It's generally like, hey, we're going to talk about this. And generally we're on the same page.
[00:19:03] Speaker A: Because it's the same as saying, I have one vote and she has zero, by the way.
[00:19:06] Speaker B: Yeah, I guess that's true. That sounded more insensitive.
[00:19:10] Speaker A: I'm sorry. I just had to say it.
[00:19:12] Speaker B: You had to say it. I didn't want to say it like
[00:19:13] Speaker A: that, but no, the point is that she's not on mute all the time. Right. And you're just over here sort of like running your own sort of tyrannical situation.
But her voice is significant. But when it comes to a decision or whatever, you're listening to your wife, considering her perspective on it, like seeking that even. And you go, okay. And I mean, this is actually a burden that men have to bear. Well, as well. Which we're talking about in a separate episode. Right. But okay, as the man now, I have to. I have to decide. I have to lead here.
And so. And. And that's not the final decision of the wife. Like the wife, a good husband seeks her, her counsel, her input her thoughts. Right. And then goes. Considers it all and goes, all right, we're going this way. Yeah. Right. Yeah.
[00:20:08] Speaker C: And I'll. I'll say this. You know, I think we're fixing to get into the flesh side. Like, okay, what does this look like inside the home? How do we do this? But I just want to double back real quickly to say that submission is not Pastor Michael's idea or Ryan's idea or Nathan's idea. It is actually. If you go back and you look at this, it is replete through the scriptures that we are all to submit in certain areas.
And the Bible is unapologetic. Submit to the governing authorities. All of you, as Christians, submit.
Submit yourself, therefore, to God. And Satan will flee from you. There's certain places every person on the planet is called to submit. And then the Bible is also explicit, like we said, Ephesians 5, 1st Peter 3, Titus 2.
Women that are married are to submit to their husbands. And so that's not optional. It just is God's design. It is God's way.
[00:21:07] Speaker A: And this is.
[00:21:08] Speaker B: Oh, wait, Pastor Michael, you don't think that translators changed the word to submit to restore the patriarchy and exert control over women?
[00:21:17] Speaker C: Yeah, no. That's the most ridiculous thing ever.
[00:21:20] Speaker B: That's stupid. But people actually think that.
[00:21:22] Speaker C: Yeah. And frankly, it's just you would have
[00:21:26] Speaker A: to do a lot of changing because to your point, it is woven through the fabric of God's design throughout the entirety of Scriptures. In fact, the more I was looking at what God's word says about this, the more passages I keep finding.
[00:21:39] Speaker C: Oh, yeah.
[00:21:40] Speaker A: Everywhere about every epistle has direction that Paul's giving to a church or even like to Titus here or Timothy or whatever about how men, Husbands are to behave, how wives are to behave, how children are to behave. And often even he has, like, a direction to servants as well. Right.
But the. But the husband and wife piece is.
I mean, it is all over the place. And so it's super, super clear. And we could also just, you know, like, go to Genesis and see how God designed it. And he makes Adam out of the dust of the ground. We talked about some of this in our previous episode. Right. Makes Adam out of the dust of the ground. He says it's not good for him to be alone. He doesn't. He could have, by the way. He could have made Adam and Eve at the exact same moment out of dust both. Right. Raised them both up and said, all
[00:22:33] Speaker C: right, you are totally the same.
[00:22:36] Speaker A: The same and equal in authority. All that. That is not like God chose not to do it that way. Right.
[00:22:41] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:22:42] Speaker A: And that communicates something about God's design. And so he makes Adam out of the dust. He makes Eve out of his rib to, you know, like, Adam is meant to, you know, protect and all these things. You know, the ideas that we get out of her being made out of his ribbon. And then she's there to help him, help him in his work. And that's the design from the very beginning. So, man, you gotta rewrite a lot of the Bible, which some people have tried, actually.
You gotta rewrite a lot of the Bible the other way, actually, to try to make it. To try to rid it. Right. In fact, I've just been reading about this, the woman's Bible. You ever heard the woman's Bible?
[00:23:21] Speaker B: I don't even wanna talk about it, dude.
[00:23:22] Speaker A: It was a feminist project in the 19th century and, and it literally goes through the Bible and tries to do the thing where it removes all this stuff that God built into relationships because of what feminism was doing. And it was trying to sort of invert what God designed. And they went and they rewrote the whole Bible doing this, which is evil by the way. That is evil. Needed clarification.
[00:23:49] Speaker B: So I think the Christians believe that if God's word says it, not only must I do it, but that means it's the best way for me to live.
Feminism says the best way for me to live is to self define without any obligation.
I am who I am.
One of the most famous questions of the Christian faith is what is my only hope in life and death?
That I am not my own, but I belong to God, body and soul, holy to Jesus Christ.
I am not my own.
That means I'm going to do it God's way. And I'm okay with that. And to Michael's point, this isn't just some white man came up with this word submit.
It is laden in the scriptures and that just means it's the best way to do it and we ought to do it that way.
[00:24:44] Speaker A: Yeah. And the point of not being my own, I mean again, we extend that all over the place in the way that we apply God's word to our lives, lives. And what we find in just as each one of us guys applying that truth in our lives is that sometimes that comes without a ton of friction and then other times it comes with a lot of friction and you have to go, you have to tell yourself, I am not my own. Right, I belong to God. And you choose to subject your will under God's design. And this is what submission looks like for a woman, right to her husband. There are moments where she has to go, I'm going to choose to do this.
[00:25:23] Speaker C: Yeah, no, I think that's exactly right. And where you just kind of went where I was hoping we would go, which is submission for a man to God. For submission for a woman to God is by definition an act of faith. To submit to the church is an act of faith.
To submit to your husband will be an act of faith. And I love the way that Paul actually structures this. In Ephesians 5, 22 he says, Wives, submit to your own husbands. And I think this is critical. As to the Lord, that last phrase is key and essentially I like to say it this way. He's acknowledging, in short, that men, your particular, or let me say it this way, husbands are not always worth following. Why? Because we're fallen.
And so there will be moments. And Tara can certainly tell you, man Michael did that. If it's just based off of his merit, I'm not submitting today.
The reason that he says as to the Lord is because you look past your husband and you say, okay, in this moment, he may have faltered. He's not by definition worth submitting to in terms of his own merit, but Jesus always is. And so I'm going to give this in faith to Jesus as a gift. I'm going to submit. And I think that is where faith meets the road in terms of living this out.
[00:26:51] Speaker B: So I want to point to one underlying that.
[00:26:55] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:26:55] Speaker B: And then I think Nathan has some good objection questions that will help us flesh this out.
I think that one of the things that I has been labeled as honorable and helpful, but has actually destroyed marriages, especially as it relates to virtuous womanhood, is this idea that we've moved past, this idea that marriage and submission in marriage is a shared vision and mission with your husband. Here's what I mean. I think the virtuous wise woman submits to her husband in all areas.
And one of those ways is actually, I'm going to graciously, by faith, put my dreams on the table.
And if they're not our dreams together, I'm okay for them to die.
And actually that's probably true the other way.
[00:27:46] Speaker C: I'm assuming it's true both ways.
[00:27:47] Speaker B: Yeah, it's definitely true both ways. But what I hear couples as they're dealing with marriage nowadays is, well, I have these dreams and you have these dreams and.
And I've almost never seen it where when they agree that there's two different dreams, I've almost never seen it be the husband's dreams getting pursued.
Generally, it's, well, just let's make her dreams come true.
If we have a shared vision and a shared mission, then it makes it a lot easier to just naturally submit because we're doing this together.
It isn't just your way. And if you don't, man, if you're thinking about marriage, if you're young and single or you're engaged, you better make sure you're on the same page.
[00:28:26] Speaker A: Amen to that.
[00:28:28] Speaker B: Make sure you're on the same.
[00:28:29] Speaker A: This is like. This is so radically countercultural that you can feel it as you say it, right? You can feel like, I think you just think of all, like literally all the movies.
Like all the movies.
[00:28:39] Speaker C: Oh, my God.
[00:28:39] Speaker A: All the pop stars. Like, literally all the messaging says the opposite of what you're saying there, which
[00:28:48] Speaker B: means we'd probably be saying it louder.
[00:28:50] Speaker A: I mean, like, literally apparel brands and on and on and on. They're all about girl power. Right. This idea of.
[00:28:59] Speaker B: I hate that term.
[00:29:00] Speaker A: I hate that term, too. I think it's. I think it's evil because I think what it lifts up is this girl power. What? Girl power.
[00:29:07] Speaker C: Over.
[00:29:08] Speaker A: And then you know. You know what they mean by that, right? Over, like the ruination that men have brought upon this world. Right. And that is such an evil perspective. But that's the kind of posture that informs what you're saying. I'm saying this just simply to try to help folks go, wow, the messaging is so consistent through American culture right now that for me to do this well is going to feel super weird. It's gonna feel super weird. And it's gonna feel like going against a lot of what I've seen and heard and what almost everybody else is doing.
It's just radically countercultural. So objections? A little bit.
Let's go there.
What if I'm going to just go through some various ones and these aren't all softball questions, Right.
So what if you kind of answered this? But I want to go a little deeper to it.
My husband's idea for our family.
This could apply all kinds of places and ways. At the end of the day, that was weird for me to say that. Speaking in the wife's voice. Right? What if my husband's idea for our family is not the same as mine? Like, what if I have a certain idea about a thing we ought to do? This could even be, like, whether we ought to stay here or relocate or something. It could be super practical. It could be sort of big picture. What if my husband's idea is different than mine? What am I supposed to do?
[00:30:41] Speaker B: Are you assuming that the wife is a believer and the husband's not? Or this is two believers and a husband?
[00:30:48] Speaker A: Yeah. No, two believers. Yeah, yeah. Competing visions, basically, right. For family or mission or I want to do this thing, but he thinks that that's not what we're supposed to do.
I gave you a hard one, right?
[00:31:00] Speaker C: Let's make it a real world scenario.
[00:31:01] Speaker A: Yeah. Go.
[00:31:02] Speaker C: This is a tough question. The husband wants to spank, the wife doesn't want to spank.
[00:31:05] Speaker A: What are you doing?
Okay, great one. That's a great one.
[00:31:08] Speaker C: Seriously, I mean, let's just go There.
[00:31:09] Speaker B: No, that's great.
Okay. Ideally, how this would look like is the husband has, over time built up small deposits of trust, following through on his word, not exaggerating, being a man of steadfastness under fire, ideally, over time, he has built small deposits of trust. And if that's true, and really, even if it's not, but if that's true, then if he prayerfully, under wise counsel, according to the word of God, decides to go this way, then I think it is becoming and scriptural of the wife to say, I'll go there with you.
And that doesn't mean you guys can push back on this. That actually doesn't mean that the wife has to fundamentally agree, but she needs to publicly, she needs to, with her children in front of them, agree with her husband as to not break up unity. I think assuming that he's a believer and even not. But that's a whole nother question, so I'm assuming they're believers.
I do think she needs to follow him. I think that's a clear teaching of Scripture.
[00:32:23] Speaker A: She needs to follow him, meaning she needs to spank the kids, too.
[00:32:28] Speaker C: The answer is yes. Yeah.
[00:32:30] Speaker B: Yeah, I think so.
[00:32:31] Speaker C: Yeah. And here's why.
Unity is critical in parenting and in discipline.
What happens is the children cannot see dad one way and mom as another way. And they're separate units. They're the same. They are a one flesh union and by definition must parent together and in the same direction. And so I would agree with what Ryan said. The only thing I would add to that is just very simply, I think a woman can and should oftentimes help the man think about, okay, if we are going to spank, what are the parameters? Like, how far is too far? What are the boundaries put. Those are good things that need to be brought to the conversation. If you don't agree. Okay, let's put up a framework for when we will use this form of discipline and when we won't, how far we will go, when we'll stop. All these things are good, helpful parts of the conversation that the wife, if she disagrees, can use to refine, maybe even the way the husband's thinking about it.
[00:33:34] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think, Let me just add to that, that it is important for the husband, when a wife is asking honest, good faith questions, to answer them patiently and gently.
[00:33:43] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. I should not take that for granted. But yes. I mean, the assumption for, again, a man to move forward in a domineering way, that in itself is sin. I mean, that's by definition, actually not Faithful leadership on the man's part. Yeah.
[00:33:57] Speaker B: So assuming that the husband is not leading to a sinful place, I think the answer is, you follow him.
[00:34:04] Speaker A: Yeah. So we used spanking, which is a good one. That one's spicy. Right.
[00:34:08] Speaker B: Outrovership. You really went for it.
[00:34:09] Speaker A: But, you know, I mean, actually you could look at the scripture and literally, I was going to say, I think there's some, you know, some good basis there.
[00:34:15] Speaker B: Bears the rod, hate.
[00:34:16] Speaker A: But I'll add to this, and then we could do something other than spanking or whatever. Move on. But I'll simply add that. And we're going to talk about husbands again. Some more men in a separate episode. But like, the husband actually needs to shepherd his wife well in that too. Right. At the end of the day, he. He makes the call. He makes the call, but he has to shepherd her well. And if she's struggling, it's not. And you said this about domineering. It's not good shepherding for him to go. It's your problem. Deal with it.
[00:34:47] Speaker C: Right. Be quiet and get out of the way.
[00:34:48] Speaker A: Right. Like, that's not just. This is not good shepherding.
[00:34:51] Speaker B: No.
[00:34:51] Speaker A: You could say that ultimately the decision is his prerogative, but he also needs to shepherd his wife well with something that he sees that she's struggling with, because live with your wife in an understanding way. Right. So, like, this is how that works. And so it's not this. Yeah. She needs to ultimately follow him in that if it's not something that contradicts scripture. Right. But he has to shepherd her well when he recognizes that there's a gap there.
[00:35:18] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:35:18] Speaker A: Right.
[00:35:18] Speaker C: Yeah. And the other thing that I would just continue to draw out through these things whenever there is a disagreement.
The reason it's an act of faith for a wife to submit in those moments is in part also trusting that if he leads the wrong way, God is going to win.
[00:35:41] Speaker B: He's going to deal with it.
[00:35:43] Speaker C: God is going to hold the man accountable.
And he's strong enough to preserve children. He's strong enough to preserve and overcome mistakes, whatever the case may be, that God can carry the day.
And so it's not on a particular individual to win the argument or win the moment.
But no, we can trust, even in our failings, God is at work.
Again, that's easy to say on a podcast. That is painful in real life, that's hard.
[00:36:15] Speaker A: No doubt. A couple other ones.
What if a woman has a husband who won't lead genuinely? Because there's actually a difference between I Don't feel like he's leading the way I want him to. Yes, that's a real thing, too. And that can either mean he's not leading or that can mean. No, that's you doing the Genesis thing, where you know your desire will be for your husband, but he will rule over you. And rule over you, by the way, is meant to be.
Your desire will be to rule over your husband, but he will have authority over you. Right?
[00:36:50] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:36:50] Speaker A: And so, like, there can be a way where she goes, a woman goes, my husband's not leading because he's not doing things the way I want him to do it. Right, Right. And that's. She needs to reorient herself there. But what about.
So we call that addressed. But what about a woman who goes, my husband just isn't really spiritually leading our family. He's not leading me. I would like for him to. And he's not.
[00:37:14] Speaker C: The place my mind goes immediately is why is he not leading?
And so what I would encourage right away is for a woman to gently. And again, this is where the wisdom is applied wisely.
Find other faithful Christian men to confront her husband.
Why aren't you leading, bro? What are you doing? What's your problem? Is it you don't know Christ? Is it you're in some sort of sin? Is it you're just being too passive? What's the problem?
But to really come alongside that family, that's a part of the role of the church. That's what elders are for.
It's a sin issue on his part. And so to call it what it is, I think that's a huge piece. I think the other piece is if he is not leading, especially when it comes to, like, if children are in the home or something like that.
And you have to be really careful here, you have to discern very wisely because you're not called to undercut him, even if he's not leading well, you're not called to subvert his leadership.
[00:38:22] Speaker A: Yeah, dad said we're going to do this, but sorry, actually going to.
[00:38:26] Speaker B: That's sinful.
[00:38:27] Speaker C: That's sinful and wrong. But to say, okay, where do I have freedom? Where do I have leverage and room under the authority God's given me to go ahead and start investing in my children spiritually, to go ahead and start leading and filling gaps where it's appropriate and I think to be proactive in that. Yeah, I mean, I think that means reading the Bible with your children. That means moms praying with their children. That means going and going to church with your children. All of those things come into play.
[00:38:56] Speaker A: And a godly woman is doing that with her children regardless of whether her husband's leading or not, she should be praying with them. Right. I mean, generally, like, you know, in a situation where if a man's at work and she's with the kids, then she's with them a lot more, she should be leveraging that time anyways for scripture memory and praying and teaching Bible like. So those are all things that ought to be happening anyways regardless of whether the husband is leading super well or kind of okay. Or not at all. Right. And your point about the church is, I think, really good because this is exactly a role within the church, the elders and then also just within the body of the church. Other good. That's why relationships matter within the church. Right. I think that a woman actually also, again, needs to just really carefully, you know, if it's going to some men in the church and be like complaining about her husband. Right.
I don't think that you're just saying
[00:39:54] Speaker B: needs to be the pastors.
[00:39:55] Speaker A: Yeah. I would say if there's a genuine concern of like, I think my husband is abdicating leadership in our home, I think the appropriate route would be for her to. Well, so one is to talk to elders pastors about that and ask for help and ask for them to encourage that husband. But two, how should she respond day by day? And you kind of answered this, but what should her response be to him in the home?
[00:40:19] Speaker B: Well, I. I was just thinking when you first asked the question, I can tell you what not to do, which is do not nag.
It is.
[00:40:28] Speaker A: Doesn't help.
[00:40:29] Speaker B: Does not help. It hurts.
And to Michael's point, if a husband is not leading there, there's something far more underlying that's going on.
[00:40:38] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:40:39] Speaker B: Whether they don't know Jesus and so they're intimidated by you knowing him. They're in significant sin. They're just passive. They never had a good model. I don't know, whatever. There's a massive underlying there things that you see.
And so a wife who is.
And generally that comes from a very good aim, which is, I want my home to look different.
But the proverbs are clear about what a nagging wife does. It's like a dripping faucet.
[00:41:06] Speaker C: Right.
[00:41:06] Speaker B: It's not a good thing to just continually bombard him.
There's times to say honest things like, hey, I wish this could be differently. But I would just say Michael's point about getting some help in the church is significant.
But I would just also say that a lot of what happens when a husband isn't leading and a wife wants him to is she grows very bitter very quickly.
And the medicine for that is, get on your knees and pray for your husband's heart.
Frankly, even if he's not leading, that should be happening, right?
But get on your knees and pray for his heart. Because what you say generally isn't going to make him change the entire course of his life.
It has to be the Holy Spirit overcoming every inch of his bones and saying, brother, step up and lead. Pray for your husband.
[00:42:01] Speaker C: The other thing, I think that's excellent. I think first Peter 3:1 is really helpful. Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives.
That is massive. And so here's the really ironic.
[00:42:22] Speaker A: That's also so countercultural.
[00:42:23] Speaker C: Yeah, it's a great thing.
But here's the.
The interesting thing, I think so often when a husband is not leading well, what seems to be the obvious medicine is confront him, come at him, make him change.
Interestingly, when a husband is not leading well, most of the time, if he has any spiritual awareness at all, he knows he's not leading well.
[00:42:48] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:42:49] Speaker C: He is already under some level of conviction. And so when a wife, instead of coming at him, chooses to honor him in spite of his failing, that does two things immediately. One, it's like an injection of life and hope that he needs to say, okay, maybe I can do this. Maybe I want to do this. But then the other thing is, it's also incredible conviction to know that my wife is loving me and honoring me even when I don't deserve it. I need to change. Like, this is not okay.
My soul is unsettled by seeing my wife love me well, when I know I could be doing more.
[00:43:30] Speaker B: Boom.
[00:43:31] Speaker C: A good man will be stirred up by a wife that honors him, even when he knows he doesn't deserve it.
[00:43:38] Speaker A: That's great. And the truth that's behind that is the truth that applies everywhere in all of life, namely, somebody else sinning.
The fix for that is not for you to sin, Right? More sin doesn't help. And so that's really what's being said there, is that Peter is going, hey, listen, if your husband is failing in his role, you shouldn't then fail in your role, right? Like, instead, what's good is always good.
And again, there's a good caveat there to go that doesn't mean, again that you Follow him into sin. Right. But that's actually, that's saying the same thing. Right. So if, if he's saying, we're going to go do this thing and you go, I'm not doing that. Going there, saying that, living this way. Right, that's right. Like you're not, you, you ought not to submit, quote, unquote, submit in those ways. Right. If he's pushing or trying to lead you into sin.
But what Peter is saying is not that he's saying, live in a way that honors, loves, respects him, remembering, as is in our definition, that God is the authority. Right. And again, we talked about this. We should obey God rather than men. Right. Men there means all humans. Right. So that's the authority. But insofar as you can respect, honor and submit to your even lost husband or saved husband who is just struggling or failing or whatever, those things actually are going to be redemptive in your home. And that's harder. I think it's harder than Ryan's point, which is to just bring it up all the time, nag and that stuff. It's actually harder. It's a practice.
[00:45:16] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:45:17] Speaker A: I mean, I think it's great to acknowledge that, to practice that gentleness, that submission when it's like that. That takes spirit power to do that.
[00:45:26] Speaker C: That's right. And that's the point. That is the point.
[00:45:28] Speaker B: The point.
[00:45:28] Speaker C: It is miraculous.
[00:45:30] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:45:30] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:45:31] Speaker A: Go ahead, Ryan.
[00:45:32] Speaker B: Well, I just think it's important to acknowledge that that verse is really protective for your kids, for them to see you on the same page, even if internally you're having significant difficulty.
[00:45:43] Speaker A: Great point.
[00:45:44] Speaker B: For them to see mom and dad on the same page is near one of the best gifts you can possibly give them for the rest of their life.
That mom and dad were on the same page. And mom and dad.
And later on, you know what, when they find out that you're maybe on a different page and they saw that you were unified, it would even be more life changing for them as they consider their future marriage. I also just want to say that, you know, if your husband is struggling to lead or is, you know, an unbeliever, it is good and virtuous and right to celebrate when he does something naturally helpful and right with your kids. Yeah. Something as small as, man, this guy works a lot, but tonight he went outside and he tossed baseball with my son.
Man, thanks for doing that, babe. I really appreciate you playing with our kids.
To Michael's point, that's going to fan into flame, some conviction or desire. And you're not doing it for that. You're just doing it because you actually are thankful.
[00:46:44] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:46:45] Speaker B: You're thankful that you saw your husband engaging.
And what I want to say, you know, it's really easy to complain and grumble and moan, and all of us are.
All of the wives that are married are married to very imperfect men.
But if your husband's there at home, you have a lot to be thankful for just to begin with.
And celebrate that. And thank him for that. And thank him for providing and thank him for playing with the kids. And thank him for, you know, it. Cleaning the house or helping. Say thank you a lot.
[00:47:16] Speaker A: Raise him in front of the kids.
[00:47:17] Speaker B: In front of the kids.
Thank him, encourage him, celebrate him.
That will help far more than nagging ever will.
[00:47:24] Speaker A: I mean, that is the definition of honoring. Right?
And that's beautiful.
[00:47:29] Speaker C: Yeah.
We've been going a while, so we need to wrap up, but I think putting on the bones this idea or putting flesh on the bones of what does submission actually look like? There's a few things that I kind of prepared that I just want to hit real fast. And then you guys can add in anything that stands out. But number one, I think it's honoring and encouraging your husband to lead.
Like, hey, I want this. I believe you can do this. You're called to this. I want to support you. How can I do that? Number two, willingly partnering with a shared mission. And so, again, that's kind of Ryan's thing. It's not. He's going to go do his thing, I'm going to go do my thing. We're going to build our career separately and hope it works out. No, we are on a journey together. We are one flesh union. And so we have a shared mission and purpose together. And I'm going to cooperate with my husband in that.
Number three, speaking honestly and wisely while still showing respect.
The reality is there's times that I need to be called out.
And the wife that God gives to a man and one of the reasons she's a good gift is she knows how to wisely call out his sin in gentleness and in kindness without tearing down.
That is an art, and there's a lot to be said there.
Deferring to the husband when no sin is involved. We've already mentioned that. It's essentially saying, okay, I don't know that I'm on the same page, but I'll follow your lead. I'll follow you until this point, the Lord redirects us or whatever the case is.
And then lastly, we've already mentioned this, but refusing to follow a husband into sin and the idea too of calling out or pointing out, I think if he is domineering, there are moments where all men are tempted to do that. And when it happens to gently and lovingly and again, wisely, just ask, hey, is this really of the Lord, the way you're acting?
Is this really the plan that God has for us?
Because men are not called to just control and manipulate and dominate.
If you think that's what we're talking about, then you've missed the whole point of what biblical submission and male leadership is.
[00:49:49] Speaker B: The posture of that last point really matters a lot.
If you are correcting your husband's sin with a Bible thumping, I'm lording it over you mentality, it will never work and it's fundamentally sinful. You're not God. It must be, hey, we're partnering together. I see this. I want to help you become more like Jesus.
The tone of your voice and the posture of that matters significantly.
[00:50:15] Speaker C: Yeah, but I'm just going to add, and I'll just say this, and again, this is really hard.
Should a wife be mad when her husband's looking at pornography?
Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, absolutely. And should she call him out pretty fiercely? Absolutely, absolutely. And so, I mean, again, there's wisdom that must be applied in the scenario, in the situation. What is the sin, what's happening and how can she address that, lovingly help him. And again, it's always meant to be redemptive, not condemning.
And so I think that's, to me, the issue.
The spirit convicts and calls us to redemption.
Satan condemns, is prideful, is angry.
[00:51:00] Speaker B: Yeah, agreed. I wasn't going at that. I wasn't going at that dynamic. I was going more at the dynamic of the, you know, the wife setting herself up as more godly.
[00:51:08] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:51:09] Speaker B: And parading that over in a very unhelpful way.
[00:51:11] Speaker C: I'm tracking. Yeah, I'm tracking.
[00:51:12] Speaker A: And I think with that, I mean, the, you know, husband looking at pornography example is a good one. There's, there's so many that are not that, but are that kind of thing.
When a wife is communicating it, I think one of the most helpful ways to communicate it is to communicate it in a way that helps the husband see that he's, he's abdicated or he's failed in what he was designed to be doing.
What I mean is for her to be able to communicate well, that wounds me deeply, of course. Like, that communication, I think is actually more effective than just like rage, outrage,
[00:51:50] Speaker C: you're being an idiot.
[00:51:51] Speaker A: Yeah. And again, I mean, there's justifiable anger and indignation over sin in all areas. Right. But the way that, that. I think one of the most powerful things for a man to hear is for his wife to say that thing, like, pierces me. That is excruciating, what's happened.
Because what that says to a man is not, I'm mad at you, you loser. Right. But rather says, man, you were called to a thing and you missed it completely. Like, not even just missed it, but destroyed it.
That actually is, I think, more. Again, not that it's a woman's job to bring conviction, but I think from like a rhetorical standpoint almost, I think that's more powerful to go, you know, to reveal that you've wounded me and sort of given up the role that you were to have. Absolutely. Rather than, how dare you, you loser. What's the matter with you? Whatever. Right. I'm just. Anyways, just.
[00:52:57] Speaker C: And I think, why, why does that cut a man? Why does that actually work?
It's again, God's word. Ephesians 5, verse 28. In the same way, husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. Listen to this. He who loves his wife, loves himself, for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it. If. If a wife says to her husband, you have wounded me, a spiritually alert and aware and alive man will be crushed by that, and he should be.
And so, yeah, that is, again, the Lord working in those things. And so obviously there's a lot to this, but go ahead, Ryan.
[00:53:37] Speaker B: Well, of course, you just opened a whole can of worms there.
Yes. That should cut a man, a spiritually honest man should be cut by that.
A concerning trend that I see is a lack of faithful, honest forgiveness.
On the other side of that, meaning my husband self admits and is committed to walking forward in faith and integrity, then I'm not going to lord that over him. I'm not going to bring it up in a fight.
I'm not going to always hold that up against him and say, well, you
[00:54:17] Speaker A: did this in the same way that a husband shouldn't hold sin over her head. Right. Like, yeah, genuine forgiveness.
[00:54:23] Speaker B: If you say that to your husband and he is struck honestly, not just obligatory sadness, but actually struck and sorrowful and remorseful in repentance and committed to making a change, it is important that you actually forgive and come back together in fellowship.
[00:54:42] Speaker A: Good. I think we need to wrap up. I'm just going to add on this the end of the verse that we opened with, because this is the stakes.
And interestingly, Paul gives the stakes here. And then Peter in the instruction to men actually gives stakes for men, which is separate. But, but in Titus, after Paul gives these directions to older women and how they're to instruct younger women, he says self controlled, pure, working at home, kind and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.
And that's the stakes.
That's like Paul helping us go. This is not just like if you want to. And it works out maybe sometimes whatever the stakes are, that God's word may not be reviled. And that's again, I think that's simultaneously a warning and a super honorable calling, right?
[00:55:43] Speaker C: Oh yeah.
[00:55:44] Speaker A: To protect God's Word from being reviled by your conduct.
So I think I'll leave that as our encouragement to women that that verse, the opportunity that you have to be godly, to be reverent, to love your husbands, to be self controlled and to live into, lean into, press into God's design for woman actually protects God's word from being reviled. And that is a great, great calling.
Thanks for joining us in this episode of Word and Flesh Further up and further in. And we'll see you soon.
[00:56:26] Speaker B: Sa.
Jesus.
Sa.
Ra.
