Lead. Provide. Protect. Virtuous Manhood in a Broken Culture | Ep 9

[00:00:09] Speaker A: What makes a man a man? What makes a man a good man, A virtuous man? If you asked 10 different people in our culture, you would probably get 11 different answers. Probably right. We live in a culture that is confused, conflicted, pretty much almost always wrong about, like, who men are meant to be, what it means to be a good, virtuous, God designed, godly man. Some people say the entire idea of masculinity itself is toxic. If it's masculine, it's toxic. Right. Other people will say that men have to be solely aggressive, strong, which strong is not a bad thing. But there's an arrogance that gets wrapped up into that. Right. This sort of almost violence to the harm of others kind of thing that goes on there. And, you know, we would reject that as well, but we're getting ahead of ourselves. So here's the real question. Those caricatures are not what men are designed to be. And those are two of the myriad answers that the culture gives about what a man is or what a man should be. So what we're going to ask today in this episode of Word and Flesh podcast is what is a man as God intends them to be? Welcome to the Word and Flesh podcast with Riverview Baptist Church. For Riverview Baptist Church, I'm Nathan Bechtold, one of our elders, joined today by Michael Biehn. [00:01:39] Speaker B: Ryan Anderson. [00:01:40] Speaker A: He's back, folks. [00:01:41] Speaker B: I'm back. [00:01:41] Speaker A: He's back. He's tired. He said it right before we pushed record. [00:01:44] Speaker B: I'm here. [00:01:45] Speaker A: I'm tired. [00:01:46] Speaker B: Let's do it. [00:01:47] Speaker A: Yeah. Babies make you tired. [00:01:49] Speaker C: They do, they do. [00:01:50] Speaker A: But I'm glad you're here, brother. [00:01:52] Speaker B: It's good to be back. [00:01:52] Speaker A: Yeah. So we're going to talk some about men today. This is meant to be kind of in parallel. This series of episodes we're going to do with a series that we're doing at Riverview on God ordained roles in the home, specifically men, women, how they're to relate to one another, what that should look like in the home. What am I missing out of that? [00:02:17] Speaker C: No, the sermon series is virtuous manhood and womanhood. And the idea being that there is a specific design and purpose that God has given to our lives as male and female. And if that's true, then knowing that is how we find the virtuous life. [00:02:35] Speaker A: Okay, great. Yeah. So, and we're going to spend, I don't know how many weeks are we spending four or five weeks on that? [00:02:40] Speaker C: Up to six, potentially. [00:02:42] Speaker A: Okay. So the goal for this is not that we're never Going to talk about manhood and womanhood after this sermon series, but we kind of want these next handful of episodes to play off of, build off of what we've got going on. Again, this episode is on manhood. We have episodes on womanhood and some other things. So that's kind of what we're in the midst of right now as we're in our series on virtuous manhood and womanhood. So we are talking about virtuous manhood today. And I want to do. We need to do two definitions, actually, because we need to go with the definition that you've given Michael in your sermon about what a virtuous man is. So start there. And there's another definition I want to give that doesn't conflict with that, but is kind of an interesting thing to think about. So go ahead now. [00:03:33] Speaker C: Yeah, so in the sermon series and what you're going to hear a couple times over is that a virtuous man is a male. And we do have to specify that. [00:03:43] Speaker B: Amazing. We have to say that. [00:03:44] Speaker C: Yeah, that's the reality. [00:03:45] Speaker A: Glad you started with that, though. [00:03:47] Speaker C: Is a male who takes initiative to lead, provide and protect others in his life with humble self sacrificing love and does those things under the authority of God. That he's not defining what that looks like, but he's looking to God to say, what is protection, what is provision, what is leadership? And then, okay, I'm going to do that in a humble, self sacrificial way. [00:04:11] Speaker A: I think that last. Well, the whole definition is really good and important, but that last part, I think is super critical because we spent a long time talking about authority on this podcast. [00:04:21] Speaker C: Exactly. [00:04:22] Speaker A: We got some great feedback from folks about that, and I think that was helpful to some people. And it's important to say that a virtuous godly man does not define for himself what it is to be a virtuous godly man in the same way for a virtuous godly woman. Right, Absolutely. Like God writes those definitions, has already written those definitions into our very being and into his Word. And so when we go, well, what should a man do or look like or be? What would it be for a man to be virtuous? We don't have to just kind of go, I don't know, how do I feel about that? What answer do I think I want to come up with in this given moment? We go, well, great, there's a guide on this and it's God's word. God has spoken to this very thing and all over the place. [00:05:09] Speaker C: Absolutely. [00:05:09] Speaker A: So, Ryan, do you want to add something to that? [00:05:12] Speaker B: Well, I think that. Yeah, I agree that the final part of that definition is essential. Placing yourself under authority. No one who's in authority, who's not under authority is a good authority. And I think it's becoming of a man who wants to be a good authority that they understand the source of the authority first, which is they become an expert at knowing God's word and being in the study. Because if you're not. If you don't know the word, you can't use the word in your authority, which is what makes you have good authority. [00:05:47] Speaker A: Right? Yeah. If you're not in God's word, how could you know what it is to be a good, virtuous, godly man or woman? So that's good. I just think it was good to highlight that part again. We're gonna get into some of those other ones. And again, in the sermons, what we've been doing is offering a lot of biblical background for some of these answers. Again, these are meant to be kind of complimentary with each other, and so we'll do that a little bit. But I think our goal is to move quickly in these episodes to hands on, like, what does this look like? So before we do that, I want to do one more definition because. And this is. You just have to forgive me because I always do this when I'm trying to understand a thing. I want to make sure I understand all the words we're using if we're trying to say, well, what is this thing? So when we say, what is a virtuous man? My thing I naturally go to is, well, what is virtue at all? I mean, in order to know what a virtuous man is, I want to know what virtue is. And I'm not saying that the etymology, which means just the breaking down of the constituent parts of a word, those give the full definition of it. Latin and Greek is usually where a lot of our words come from. But I think that's a good starting point because we go, well, that's where it comes. Came from. So at least we can know where it came from. So I honestly didn't know the answer to this, but I had some suspicions because, you see, the. The beginning of the word virtue is V I, r. In Latin, that is, you know, I actually don't know the. Okay, male. [00:07:14] Speaker C: Oh, nice. [00:07:15] Speaker A: Masculine. [00:07:16] Speaker C: There you go. [00:07:17] Speaker A: And so the word Latin is. The Latin word is virtus, V I, r, T, U, S. I probably am not pronouncing that right. For the Latin geeks out there. But. But. V I R T U S V I r. It's like where we get the word virility literally, like pure masculinity. And the tus is having the quality of. So in the original, the Latin word that we basically just transliterated, we just turned. I mean, the word virtus is what we now say virtue. It originally meant manliness. Isn't that interesting? [00:07:50] Speaker C: Nice. [00:07:50] Speaker A: It just meant manliness. That's interesting. Now. [00:07:53] Speaker B: I love it. [00:07:53] Speaker A: I'm not saying a virtuous woman is manly. Right. So we go. [00:07:57] Speaker C: We've adjusted it. [00:07:58] Speaker A: So, yeah, the term has grown, but I think you should always go back to how the term started, because we still do use that word. And it was born out of, like, it has a trajectory, an uninterrupted trajectory from when they were using it in the Latin to now when we say it in English. And I think it's good to just kind of not worth it. We're going to have a big language lesson. But I think that that's just really interesting that originally, and the reason that it was applied to men was because it meant things like strength, courage, leadership. That was what was implied wrapped up in the word. [00:08:32] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:08:32] Speaker A: And so it was applied to men. You wouldn't almost ever say it of a woman unless you're actually referencing a woman who had shown some, like, really manly qualities of strength and leadership. Right. You would say you might use that word about a woman in that context, but generally it was applied to men. And. And so then I thought, okay, well, I think what it's trying to say is a man acting as a man is designed to act. Yeah. Now, the Romans were mostly pagans until they actually became Christians later on. But that's, I think, baked into the word. So I'll stop with my geek out on language. But I just like to know if I'm using a word, what do I even mean by that word? And so I don't know that I. I'll just stop there. But I think that's some background on what we mean by virtue. And I think it's something like acting in a accordance with how God designed you to be. And so let's jump off from there. We have the definition that we gave of a virtuous man. And I guess the first part was a male who takes initiative to lead. Well, maybe we'll stop there. Who takes initiative. To break this into a bunch of parts, a virtuous man is a male who takes initiative. Ryan, you want to take initiative to answer that question. [00:09:47] Speaker B: Well, I was just thinking that you have to take initiative in the proper direction. There rarely is a man who isn't taking initiative. Even if the man. Well, let's not call him a man. Even if it's a boy who can shave, who's living in his mom's basement, he's likely taking initiative to be an expert at video games. He's taking initiative to do something. Most young men right now are taking a lot of initiative at being experts at sports parlays and betting. Every man has initiative in them directing that initiative towards leading, protecting, providing others. That's the important thing. [00:10:30] Speaker A: Yeah, that's good. And I'm not going to do another word breakdown, but initiative just means initiate, right? [00:10:35] Speaker C: Correct. [00:10:35] Speaker A: It just means to start to be the mover of a thing. And so, yeah, you're right. I think it's baked into men to want to accomplish a thing. And I actually think the point about video games. [00:10:46] Speaker B: Yeah, but look how video games are made. [00:10:48] Speaker A: Yeah, right. [00:10:50] Speaker B: Look at Minecraft, look at all these. They're convincing you that you're building something. [00:10:53] Speaker A: Yep. [00:10:54] Speaker C: Right. [00:10:55] Speaker A: I mean, honestly. And as a person who spent some time on some video games in college, the ones that have the quest in them are so weird. That's why they're addictive. Addictive because we have this need as men to have built and accomplished a thing. [00:11:12] Speaker C: Right. [00:11:13] Speaker A: I mean, so literally, if you look at the kinds of games there are, there's actually. I didn't even think about this. This is totally off the top of my head here. But there's building type games where, I mean, they actually even had this in Fortnite. Right. Like you go build stuff, walls are bare. There's building type games. SimCity. I loved SimCity growing up. [00:11:31] Speaker B: That's a throwback. [00:11:32] Speaker A: Yeah. There's quest type games where you're on a mission and you have to accomplish a quest and, and there's battle type games where you have, you have to go and take major risk and go like defeat the enemy. [00:11:47] Speaker B: Right. [00:11:47] Speaker A: I mean, wow. Those are actually just totally built for how guys are actually geared to work. [00:11:52] Speaker C: Yeah, that's good. [00:11:54] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:11:54] Speaker C: And I think, you know, one of the things that when it comes to taking initiative that we want to encourage at Riverview Baptist Church is the idea that you are called men to take initiative. I think really in four major realms. Self, home, church, work, and to think real practically. Am I actually leading myself to follow and love Christ? Am I working at home to help my wife, my children, whoever it is that I'm responsible for their move towards him. Same thing. Church. How am I investing there? Or am I just passively coming and consuming and going home? And then in the workforce, Is my job actually a way that I glorify God and I use it to build and produce spiritual fruit, or am I just trying to earn a buck? Those kinds of places, I think help us determine really quickly. Am I actually taking initiative? [00:12:57] Speaker A: That's good. Yeah, those are some good kind of handles there. I think I'll back up and just say it. The point about video games was not to say good, so then just go play video games. And you fulfilled your initiative. Calling it was quite the opposite. [00:13:09] Speaker B: Surely you could hear the tone in my voice. [00:13:10] Speaker A: Yeah, it was that they're addictive for a reason and that it plays to those kind of built in things that men want to do. And it does it in the worst possible way, which is by not doing it at all, but making you feel like you did it. Right. So anyways, I wanted to clarify that. But what you added there is. Is good. So manhood begins with taking initiative. And then one point that you had mentioned was that Adam was given responsibility first. So again, we actually Genesis 2 is our. There's several key passages that we need to make sure we attend to, but Genesis chapter two is core for us to understand. Men, women, how they're designed to function, how they're distinct, what God meant for them to do in the world and in relationship with one another. And then thus, like with all that, what it would mean for them to be virtuous versus not virtuous. Right. So Genesis 2, man's created first, he's given work. [00:14:10] Speaker B: Yeah. I would just add, I think some people may be wondering, you know, hey, it's 2026. Why in the world does what happened in Genesis matter? And I just think it's important to say that how Christians interpret Genesis before the fall is this is how it ought to be. This was perfect. And so we're aiming to go back to that. It isn't just, hey, well, let's, you know, let's go back to the stone ages and, you know, replicate that. No, this was perfection and human flourishing in the garden with God. And so the reason we find Genesis 1 and 2 especially important for divining all these things is because that's how it ought to be and that's how it will be. [00:14:49] Speaker C: Right? Yeah. And I think, you know, to that end, that a part of the initial creation and design is from day one, Adam has work to accomplish. [00:15:00] Speaker B: That's right. [00:15:00] Speaker C: He has a domain and a dominion that he is to oversee, to cultivate, and to build. And so he's literally given the task to name animals. And that communicates something, that communicates an authority and a power over every other living thing. And so, yeah, it's interesting to me, you know, and this is a whole nother topic, but again, the idea of retirement is. And just. Or coasting as a man is innately unbiblical. You will do hard work, I'm convinced, in heaven forever. You will not be bored in heaven. [00:15:35] Speaker A: Yeah. God. Yes, that's right. And that actually synthesizes both what you guys are saying, which is that when God made things the way they were, they ought to be, man was put to work. [00:15:43] Speaker C: That's right. [00:15:44] Speaker A: And so, I mean, at the fall, that gets distorted, but actually what that means is that the work that God gave him to do became more difficult and painful and laborious. [00:15:54] Speaker C: Right, that's right. [00:15:55] Speaker A: But it wasn't that, like, work started after the fall. [00:15:58] Speaker C: That's exactly right. There's good work. And then after the fall, a new word comes in. It's literally toil. And we all understand what toil is. It's the frustration. It's the tedium. It's drudgery. The drudgery. [00:16:10] Speaker B: It's a swing set with 1200 pieces. [00:16:13] Speaker A: Speaking from recent experience, Ryan has engaged [00:16:17] Speaker C: in some toil recently. Yes. [00:16:21] Speaker A: So Adam is given responsibility. Adam is made. He's given responsibility to tend and to keep it. Man, there's all kinds of good stuff there that you don't have time to get into what that might mean, what that might look like. But the reality is that work does extend out into the world now. So Adam is given dominion over it and is told tend to keep it. Subdue is one of the verbs that's used, which is a really interesting command there, to subdue it. [00:16:46] Speaker C: Right. [00:16:46] Speaker A: Because that makes you start to think, oh, God didn't make the world in a perfect state. In other words, what I mean is the relationship between man and God and man and his wife was perfect, but the world was not perfect in the sense of complete. Right. God said, it is good. And then he put Adam in it and said, now get to work, because there's a lot that needs doing here, and multiply, because you're going to need a lot of people to do it. Right, Right. So that is like that command echoes all the way to now. So then when you're talking about retirement, I don't think that that means that you literally work the exact Same job until you die at your desk or something. Right. That's not your point, but namely the idea of checking out of a mentality where I need to take initiative, cultivate God's earth again. I mean, you probably should garden. Cause it's just good for your soul. But like, that doesn't always mean gardening, but it means like, like working with what God's given to grow his kingdom within the stuff of it. Go ahead. [00:17:43] Speaker B: Okay, I have a theory on the question I'm about to ask, but I just like to hear from you all. What do you think stops men from taking initiative? I mean, other. You can just say sin. But I mean more than that because it just seemed like we have an initiative problem, at least initiative directive problem. Right. Where they're directing it in our culture. What are maybe one or two things you think has led to that? [00:18:08] Speaker C: Well, I would say, I mean, the first thing that comes to my mind is fear. Yes, there is a fear of. And it goes in a lot of different directions very quickly. But number one, I think of fear of failure. That, hey, if I engage and I fail, then what does that mean for me? And I think I'd rather just not try than be known as a failure. [00:18:29] Speaker A: Give some examples real quick before you do the next one of where you might engage but be afraid of engaging. [00:18:36] Speaker C: I hear it all the time at church. I can't be a life group leader. We tell somebody, we see this in you. I can't do it. Why? I don't have a good reason. I just, I can't do it, I'm afraid. [00:18:48] Speaker B: I mean, that's. [00:18:50] Speaker A: I would say at work, engaging. I mean, it can look like a lot of things. [00:18:56] Speaker C: Oh yeah, it looks like a thousand different things. [00:18:57] Speaker A: As a man in work that's actually good work because there's some bad work out there. [00:19:03] Speaker C: Right? [00:19:03] Speaker A: But in work, that's good work where you're like, man, I can see where God's working his purpose, purposes out through this, my little corner over here. There can be a major difference in your work in the. We call it secular world, but it's not secular world. If you're a Christian, you're bringing the kingdom into it. Right? It's redeemed work. There can be a difference between somebody who's there for a reason of just making the cash, which again, nothing wrong with making good money at the work you do. Right. Or is being passive or is not taking initiative versus someone who is. So I just mean in the workplace, I think there's a whole myriad of things Everything from just like the nuts and bolts of how your work works to the whatever realm of authority and influence you have in the place that you work with the people with whom you work. Right. It can be. It goes back to the fear. That's my point is it can be scary in those moments for men. They can have fear of the kind of vulnerability that can come from exerting godly, the right kind of aggressiveness. In other words, aggressive. Maybe some people won't like that word, but I think it can work there, which is namely to go, I'm bringing the kingdom of God into this place and I will meet resistance. But that's okay, right? Like being assertive and strong. And it doesn't mean that you're not kind of. You don't have a little fear about it. [00:20:28] Speaker C: Right. [00:20:28] Speaker A: A guy who goes into. Goes into a battle, has some fear, but he goes in anyways. Right. So anyways, I think life groups is an example. I think a lot of them deal with this in some way in their work, with taking new ground, with shepherding, discipling the men that are under them at their word. [00:20:45] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, right. [00:20:46] Speaker A: With not making compromises, but instead like pushing into what's good with how they grow their work or their business or their. Their sphere of it. [00:20:53] Speaker C: Yeah, I hear. I mean, the other example in the home. [00:20:56] Speaker A: Yes. [00:20:56] Speaker C: Why don't you pray with your wife? Well, I don't know how. [00:20:59] Speaker B: I'm afraid. [00:20:59] Speaker C: I'm afraid. That's really what. I don't know how. All that means is I'm afraid to pray with my wife out loud. So, yeah, I mean, it's all over the place. [00:21:09] Speaker B: Yeah. I think as I talk to men, the number one reason stopping them from initiating things they ought to is I don't know how to do it. And when men do not know how to do something, they just don't do it. No good man wants to look stupid. And so as I'm thinking about it, I'm like, okay, so what is the. What is the medicine for that? Well, there's all kinds of medicine. Read God's word, be with his people, all that stuff. But I think that the profound medicine is we need older virtuous men who have led their wives well to take younger, hungry men to say, here's the way, brother. We need older retired men and older believers in the kingdom and elders and pastors to stop looking at men and say, okay, you have to take responsibility, initiative, go figure it out. [00:21:58] Speaker A: Right. [00:21:58] Speaker B: Instead, say, well, here's what you're going to say. To your wife, you're going to go home tonight and you're going to grab her hands and you're just going to pray. We need more men who see it as their mission to help. We can't just say, oh, man, there's a crisis of manhood without real men saying, I'm going to help you take initiative. [00:22:12] Speaker A: That's a great point. That's a great point. And I think the leading and praying with your wife thing is like a really critical entry point on that. But I think it also just plays out through how do I be a man who takes initiative Right. In my finances? You know, I think there are older godly men who have walked well and wisely with their finances. In my role in the church, like you were just talking about, in my business, like all those areas, I agree with you. I think having men who. Not saying that they did it perfectly, but go, Lord gave me some wisdom along the way and, you know, I'd like to kind of share it as I can with you and if you'll hear it. So. [00:22:50] Speaker B: And I think, if I could just say I think those older men are afraid of it because they don't think the younger men want it. And I'm telling you, they want it. Want it. Right. They. This world is. Hates manhood. [00:22:59] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:22:59] Speaker B: And they want that older man to look at them and say, do this and don't do this. And guess what? They'll listen. [00:23:05] Speaker C: Yeah, I think that's a good word. And so in terms of initiative, I just want to back up then and just kind of say this and we can move on to the. I guess the next piece. But what we're then saying is a part of manhood is being willing to take the bull by the horns, whatever that is. And as a part of that, the opposite side then is manhood is not necessarily the way that the culture, I think a lot of times tries to define it is by a particular. Like, you attain a status. Like you. You own a business or you have sex or you do certain. You drink a beer or you do these things. And now you've arrived to manhood. And one of the things we just want to say very clearly at Riverview is, no, that's not manhood at all. You can be an absolute child and be a multimillionaire and grow a beard and not be a man. A man takes initiative and he takes it in the right direction, in the right places. [00:24:07] Speaker B: I love what Paul says to Timothy. Fight good. Fight of the faith. And the next two words are take hold of what the eternal life to which you are called. That's what you fight for. That's what you take initiative. And everything else will flow from that dude. [00:24:24] Speaker A: That's it. Yeah. That's the initiative. That's great. And yes, that is what men are called to do. And yes, it is scary. And you should do it anyways. Gird your loins, brothers. [00:24:32] Speaker C: That's right. [00:24:33] Speaker B: But if you do it once, the next time a little less scary and less scary and less scary. [00:24:36] Speaker A: I'll add briefly, and then we'll go to the next one. Is that. I think my answer to your question about why they don't. I think also the culture has treated men who. Yes. Criminalized. Thank you. I was trying to think of the right word. Men who take initiative generally. And has elevated a weak, pathetic, feminized version of men and said, that's what you should be. Men viscerally don't like that because that's not how you're built. [00:25:11] Speaker C: And I would just add women actually don't like it either. [00:25:14] Speaker A: Totally. Totally. Yes. [00:25:16] Speaker B: Well, I was just. There's so many things to add on this point, but maybe this will be the last ad. But then you guys will add to this ad. But the, you know, people who take initiative. Men who take initiative now are labeled narcissist. And to be fair, I understand that because a lot of the men who are held up who take initiative are narcissists. Well, maybe. But also, they don't take ownership when their initiative fails. [00:25:40] Speaker A: Oh, sure, right. [00:25:41] Speaker B: And it's important for men to take initiative to realize when it fails. You also take initiative to admit the failure. [00:25:47] Speaker C: That's right. [00:25:47] Speaker B: That's what good men do. [00:25:48] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Great. [00:25:50] Speaker C: Yeah. And so. So just, you know, to be clear, what we're saying is, you know, you're Andrew Tates of the world. They are just as wrong about what a man is as someone that puts forward a. An effeminate, you know, weak. Yeah, whatever kind of man. [00:26:04] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, this was episode one on Initiative. We have a lot. No, I'm just kidding. We're gonna. We're gonna move through some of these other ones. Who knows how fast we can move through this? We just knew this was gonna happen, though, as we. As we drew this out. And that's all right. That's all right. Because I think it's good for us to unpack some of those things. So let's move into at least some of the other parts of this definition. So it takes initiative to lead, provide and protect. Okay. Lead, provide and protect. Did we hit lead? We feel like pretty good. What about provide and protect? [00:26:35] Speaker C: Yeah, you know, in terms of provision and protection, I love first Timothy 5, 8. If a man does not provide for himself and his family, he has essentially forsaken the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. If that doesn't tell you what a man must do, I don't know what does. Men must provide and make a way for their family to survive in this world. Yeah. [00:27:04] Speaker B: Okay, I have a lot to say here. [00:27:05] Speaker A: Do it. [00:27:06] Speaker B: I think that men have used this passage in a lot of wrong ways to say simply that if I just pay the bills, then I have accomplished the command to provide. Oh, sure, that's hot garbage. At my wedding, my best man stood up and read an excerpt from Richard Baxter's book. I think it's this most famous book on being a pastor. And Baxter says, if you provide for your family financially and they have cattle on a thousand hills, but you don't pray with your kids and you don't demand that, you don't provide a spiritual culture or flourishing, you're not providing at all. [00:27:48] Speaker A: Good. [00:27:49] Speaker B: And so your bank account can be full, but if you're not providing the word, if you're not providing a commitment to Jesus, you're just not providing. And I think people use, well, well, my wife has all that she wants and say, I got it, I'm providing. I don't think that's it. [00:28:04] Speaker A: Or some will say, well, my wife does the spiritual providing and I do the material providing. She takes the kids to church or like, or she, you know, she. Which, I mean, it's great for a, for a moment, scripture, like, help the kids. Yeah, right, absolutely. But, but to, like, outsource that and be like, she does that part. I do. I work hard. You know, I'm at. I'm grinding, you know, you know, 60 hours a week. [00:28:26] Speaker B: Right. It's how you work from 5am to 10pm you're like, well, I'm making money, but my kids sat at the dinner table, but without me. [00:28:34] Speaker A: Right, right. [00:28:35] Speaker B: But it's okay because I'm providing. [00:28:36] Speaker A: Right, exactly. No, that's a great point to bring up. [00:28:39] Speaker C: That's good. And I, you know, when it comes to, like, protection and provision, you know, one of the things that we were going to talk about at some point, we're running out of time, so I'll just go ahead and throw out there. I think men tend to vacillate between either domination or abdication. We kind of just say, like, hey, it's either my way or the highway or why try? And I think that's exactly what happens with a lot of men when it comes to provision like that one makes sense to us as men. And so a lot of men will say, I'm going to hit that one. I'm going to nail that one. And then, okay, why figure out the rest? And that by definition is. And interestingly enough, both of those things in the worst kind of way, it's, I'm going to make this happen the way I think it should happen over here. And then life, you're on your own to develop our kids spiritually, to educate them, to do whatever. And so, interestingly, you've both dominated and abdicated all at the same time. And neither of those is God's plan for a man. Yeah. [00:29:39] Speaker A: And abdication. And again, this is like we're in Genesis, right? [00:29:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:43] Speaker A: So you just, you look at, you just turn the page, go to the next chapter, right. And you see Adam abdicate. And I think there's. I've heard a lot of interesting angles on, you know, actually the kind of. The question you asked, like, why did he abdicate? Right. There probably are. I mean, it's all kind of speculative, but I think that you can kind of reverse engineer the answer by going, well, why do men abdicate now? Right. Because. Because sin hasn't changed really. Right. Temptation hasn't changed for men and for women. And so. But that is the, that's like the initial abdication of his leadership. Protection. Right. Even. [00:30:22] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:30:22] Speaker A: Protecting his wife there. [00:30:23] Speaker C: And protect. [00:30:24] Speaker A: Not leading her, I would say, being afraid of the consequences of, of pressing in and leading her, potentially even. Right. Like, that's uncomfortable if he jumps in and goes, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. [00:30:38] Speaker B: Right. [00:30:39] Speaker A: No, no. [00:30:39] Speaker B: It's an okay word to say to your wife. [00:30:41] Speaker A: Yeah. I don't know. I mean, she might not have liked that answer. [00:30:45] Speaker C: Right, right. [00:30:46] Speaker A: And again, that's speculative in that situation. It's not speculative in normal life now. Right. Like, you have to go, no, we're not doing that. That is against God's will for us. Right. [00:30:59] Speaker B: Michael doesn't not. I don't think he likes the theory I'm about to put forward. So I don't want to build a theological claim on it, but I think it works. Now, I don't know if it worked in the garden in terms of the theological makeup of Genesis, but I had a professor recently argue that Adam's first problem was that he let the snake in to begin with. Now, that is a little. It's A little. A little over interpretation. [00:31:21] Speaker C: Yeah, I would agree with that. [00:31:22] Speaker A: Right, right. [00:31:22] Speaker B: And I understand that. And I'm not going to say it definitely happened. [00:31:25] Speaker A: Right. [00:31:25] Speaker B: But I do think, let's just say that that was the first Adam's first mistake, the passive abdicating. He let the snake in the garden. I think nowadays one of the biggest problems I'm seeing in the lead provide protect area is a false view of strength that says I can let all the snakes in anywhere I'm at and I can defend against the snakes when they're already in my home. [00:31:50] Speaker A: Oh, I see what you mean. [00:31:51] Speaker B: As opposed to let's just keep the snakes out outside. And so again, I'm not going to build a whole theological claim. I'm with you on that, Adam. Well, maybe, but I think the point there is that a lot of the passivity, like people think that passivity just happens when responding to sin. But actually I think the worst kind of passivity is when you're not proactive in avoiding it for yourself, your wife, your home, your family. You got to be proactive in avoiding it. Not because we're all just weak and fickle. We have the spirit in us. We can say no and we must. But if there's a snake in there who's offering us beautiful fruit, the fact is we're going to be very similar to Adam. [00:32:33] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. No, I think that's totally fair. [00:32:35] Speaker A: Good. Yeah. So provide, protect others with humble self sacrificing love. We talked about under God's authority already. So how about, how about. And again, man, you know, we're already skipping over a whole bunch of notes here. We got all kinds of good stuff here. I know we'll have to do a. We could do a. Yeah, you know, part two, like some other time, I guess, I don't know. But with humble self sacrificing love. Where's that in the Bible? Teed somebody up for that answer, that is. Yeah. [00:33:05] Speaker C: Ephesians 5, obviously in terms of loving the wife, love your wife, men as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her. I think the, the other thing that I would just add to this because I think most of us get that peace. We understand self sacrificial love. But the way that looks oftentimes is you choosing to bear the burden. You bear the burden for your wife, you bear the burden for your children. And the reason I actually was thinking about this in Lamentations, it actually tells us, I think in chapter three that it is good for a young man to bear the yoke to bear a burden when he's young, essentially. And the idea is this, that men are made to be burden bearers. We are made to work and to work hard. We are made to pour ourselves out. And when our wives. You come home and your wife is hurting, that's not just her problem to figure out. You are called to help her and bear that burden with her. The same is true. And I think this is really hard for us as men at church. We don't like being vulnerable, we don't like being exposed. And I've heard a lot of men say, well, you know, that's not really my place, or it's not my business to step into this other young man's life and speak into how he disciplines his children or how this thing happens. A part of burden bearing is saying, yeah, brother, I care enough to see this and say something about it. I'm going to step into what's happening in your life in a loving burden bearing way. Not in an overbearing, like dogmatic, but in a humble way and say, hey, I see this. And I think that doesn't happen nearly enough, frankly, even at Riverview. Bear one another's burdens. [00:34:57] Speaker B: Amen to all that. I totally agree. I think men, you know, one of the most ugly attacks on manhood today is that somewhere along the way, culture convinced us that men having really deep, vulnerable friendships is a bad thing. [00:35:13] Speaker C: Exactly. [00:35:14] Speaker B: And that's really destroyed culture. I was just thinking of another kind of attack related here that I think will be really helpful for us to just push back on a little bit, which is, I think that cynicism is honored as manliness today. Like if you just don't trust anyone, if you are just so hardened by the world, it's kind of seen as, well, man, he's a strong man. And I think that's actually the exact opposite of the entire teaching of manliness in the Bible, which is that, yeah, you're strong, you're also vulnerable and trusting in the right and proper moments. Cynicism is a terrible thing. [00:35:58] Speaker A: Yeah. You actually see it playing out in the culture among a segment, especially of younger men, maybe young millennials and some of the older kind of Gen Z, with cynicism against women in particular. Right. And they're responding to something real and bad, but they're responding in a bad way to the real and bad thing. The real and bad thing is like what we said earlier, that masculinity in its best forms has been completely demonized, actually literally criminalized in certain ways. Certain Situations, but has been demonized, hated, and men have been told, don't be that way. And again, men just can't, you know, can only handle that for so long. So I think you see a lot of young men that cynicism is creeping in, in their relationship to women. They're like swearing off women completely. Right. And hate all women and all this stuff. And it's like, yeah, there's a lot of problems and there's. And again, the culture has very wrongly treated good masculinity. But the answer is not like you're saying it's not cynicism and it's not. That's just another kind of abdication, right? Yeah, it's just another abdication going. I'm not going to marry a woman, lead her humbly and sacrificially, which is going to mean man get. It's going to be uncomfortable and it's going to expose the ways that I am the weakest and the worst. The parts of me that I'm bad at, whatever those are. It's different, I think, for different men. Right. I'm not going to do that. I'm just going to bow out. Right? That's just abdication. And you're right, it's evil. It's actually against God's design to do that. [00:37:43] Speaker C: That's where my head was. By going that route, you're actually rejecting God's good design. Unless you have the gift of celibacy, which the vast majority of men do not. God's desire for you is that you would find a woman and you would trust that he can provide for you a woman that is good and godly and safe for you to be yourself at. Be your. With. Excuse me. And I think that is in itself is an act of faith, is to say, yeah, Lord, I'm going to trust you to show me a good godly woman to pursue. And then when you show me her, I'm going to step out, I'm going to face potential rejection. That's hard. But again, that's what it looks like to live by faith and take initiative. [00:38:24] Speaker A: It's good. Yeah. And again, not a perfect woman because you ain't a perfect man, but one that, but a godly woman. And then you. And then again then you marry and then begin to lead that person and [00:38:33] Speaker C: you refine each other. [00:38:34] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, right. [00:38:35] Speaker B: The typical, typical young man right now is more likely to have gambling debt than they are to take a young woman on a date. [00:38:42] Speaker A: Interesting stat. [00:38:43] Speaker B: That's damning. [00:38:45] Speaker C: That is interesting. [00:38:46] Speaker B: That was from Ben Sasse in a recent interview. [00:38:49] Speaker A: I believe that. [00:38:50] Speaker B: Oh, I totally believe it. I could see it. [00:38:52] Speaker A: Yeah. And that again, the gambling debt is actually just another like iteration of the whole video game thing that we were talking about. It's, it's, it's this pretense of doing something, taking risk. I mean it is a kind of risk, but it's stupid. And instead, you know, like the actual battle is yet to be fought. My dude. Right, like, well said. [00:39:14] Speaker C: And I just want to highlight out [00:39:15] Speaker A: there, go slay the dragon, take the woman and go fight the battle. You know, that's right. [00:39:18] Speaker C: And I want to highlight just parenthetically what Nathan said. Gambling is stupid. Don't do it. Yes. [00:39:25] Speaker B: Yeah, more on that later. [00:39:27] Speaker C: Yeah, more on that is coming. But I think, you know, in terms of, and I think we do need to try to put a little flesh on this and so to in some way be thinking of a story or an example of how some of these things have played out in our own lives. I would just try to maybe wrap some of this up by saying essentially this, that I do think the cross is the clearest picture of true masculinity. Jesus did not go to the cross because he was weak. He went to the cross because he was the only one who could. He was infinitely powerful and literally gave himself up. And so the world's idea of masculinity is that men take power and use it in self serving ways. That's generally why women to say they hate it. It's also why men like the Andrew Tate or whoever it is out there, that's the caricature that's put forward is you take it, you earn it, you get it your way. The Bible says men are strong and in fact incredibly strong, but they give themselves away for the good of other people. And that's what Jesus did for us. [00:40:39] Speaker B: Yeah, no one looked at Jesus hanging on the cross and thought he was weak because of his sacrifice. [00:40:44] Speaker C: Well, in the moment they did well for sure. [00:40:46] Speaker B: But on this side of it, but [00:40:47] Speaker C: that's the beauty of it is, and men hear that there may be moments that you do things that look really weak to the world and yet are beautiful and strong and eternally good. And so yeah, praying with your wife looks foolish to the world. Setting yourself up, young single man, to go out and maybe be rejected by a woman may seem foolish to the world. It may be more safe to be [00:41:10] Speaker B: cynical or protecting the marriage bed until [00:41:13] Speaker C: you're married or that whatever the case may be, the world will call it weakness. And yet that is going to be where true virtue, strength and the good life are found. [00:41:26] Speaker B: Well, and just for men to know that culture is going to attack these inclinations of sin that are from the fall. In other words, I mean, just look at the pornography industry. Pornography attacks a man's desire for sex and it's dominant and it's aggressive and it's ugly and people are. And it also gives the impression of fulfillment, like you did something. And in fact, it's despicable and nasty and horrendous. But the culture will always attack where we're weakest. And I mean, we're seeing this everywhere. [00:42:08] Speaker A: Good. Any last thoughts or. You said put flesh on the bones there. [00:42:12] Speaker C: Yeah. Do you have any, you have a thought on how we can do that? [00:42:14] Speaker A: Oh, man, like you're better at that than are. I mean, what are we looking for flesh on specifically? Oh, like how to be a virtuous man in the home. I think, like, how is that played out in your home? I mean, you could do work in all the other places, but I think home is probably a helpful one to start with. So for me, I have a tendency to, I lean towards the passivity side to withdraw. And what that has looked like is not being willing to push back. And yeah, I want to say this in a way that doesn't make my wife look like some heathen. Right. Because, you know, she's amazing. [00:42:56] Speaker C: We all three have wonderful wives. [00:42:57] Speaker A: Right? Yeah. But like, as I lead my wife and set the course for my family, being courageous enough to see where I believe God is leading us, to state it really clearly, to hear from my wife, but ultimately to go, this is where we're going. And to do that in a way that's not dismissive. Right. Because to me, that's actually the hard part of that is because it would actually almost be easier to shut off that one valve over there and just turn on the, get in line, we're going, whatever. And it's like, well, I mean, that ultimately is my prerogative to lead my family, but if I don't do it in a godly way, you know, humble self sacrificing way, then I'm not really doing that. Right. So I don't know if I really put flesh on the bones there, but. [00:43:50] Speaker C: No, I think you did. [00:43:51] Speaker A: But for my wife and then ultimately for my children, opportunities or decisions that we've made sometimes decisions that have been very kind of countercultural decisions about how we have our home, school, all the rest. And I go, this is what I believe God's calling us to do as our family, and it's going to make us uncomfortable. And by the way, I'm not going to be like, best of luck, I'm off to work. [00:44:14] Speaker B: I'm going to hold your hand through it. [00:44:15] Speaker A: Let me know how it goes. [00:44:17] Speaker C: Why not? [00:44:17] Speaker A: What's wrong with that? So that, for me, has been the struggle and how I've tried to, again, I'm trying to say I haven't done that perfectly, but that's been. The aim is to go lead them well, walk with them well, shepherd them into tough decisions and don't just like, drop a tough decision bomb on everybody and go deal with it. [00:44:37] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:44:37] Speaker A: Too bad, you know, because that would be easier in a sense. But it damages your. It damages everything, right? Your authority and your home and your wife and your children and all that stuff. So to me, working through those things in a way that doesn't dismiss any element of that, I think has been. [00:44:54] Speaker C: I think that's really well said. And I think, I mean, to me, what that highlights is how easy men switch between abdication or domination. What you just said. And so again, the thoughtful, good, wise, loving husband and father, there is a shepherding effect. It's this slow thought through. Like I'm not just flipping a switch over here and swinging all the way over to the other side. I think for me, in my home, where I sense this, the battle for me, I don't mind having some hard conversations and disappointing people. What really I've found is this, I enjoy comfort too much. And so for me, it's just, if I'm not careful, I'll just pick what seems to be the easiest way. That's still close enough. It's close enough to the good way, and it's just the easier way. And so whether that's a discipline issue, maybe we're going to do this kind of discipline. And it's close enough, it's easy enough, let's move on. Or, hey, we're not going to keep the budget as tight as we could. We set the goal a certain way, and this is close enough. It's easy. That inclination for ease, when I can catch that in myself and then course correct, that's when I'm at my best. [00:46:14] Speaker A: Okay, Ryan, you wrap it up with some flesh on the bones and then we'll end. [00:46:18] Speaker B: Well, I do think finances in the home is something I've had to just really work through in terms of a theology slash virtuous way to. To spend. And I think that I want my wife and kids to know that money is a tool to be used for God's kingdom, not just to get whatever we want. And so what that's looked like is even on little is there's missionaries on our kitchen door, on our kitchen fridge. And my daughters are going to grow up and know, you know what? Hey, you may have to work a chore and not get your little allowance for that chore. And we're going to help missionaries out. I think more than you know, that's a small thing that I just try to be really cautious of because I don't want to worship money and I don't want my family to just revolve around money, and much of our culture revolves around that. But also I just think in terms of self. And this is just a really honest admission. And I hope young men are listening. As I was a young man, I did not have a good sustainable practice of spending time in God's presence and being filled up with His Word. And what I tell young men all the time is building those habits does not become easier. Even as a. In my college years and moving here, it has been war to pursue the virtuous man in terms of making myself do the business of being happy in God. George Mueller always said the most important business is that every day I make myself happy in God. In other words, I get in his word. And that was difficult. And finally I can just say, honestly, this is his honest submission. In the past year, year and a half, it's finally been at a place where I'm like, this is sustainable. This will overflow into my home and marriage and kids and work and all the rest. And so I do think as you pursue the virtuous man in terms of yourself, set the alarm 30 minutes earlier. We can all do a little less sleep if that meant we're being filled up. And that was a sacrifice I just had to make. And it's been a lot better. [00:48:43] Speaker A: Good. All right. There's a lot more to be said. [00:48:45] Speaker C: Let me add this one thing. I want God's word to have the final word on this subject. First Corinthians 16, 13, and 14. Man, I just encourage every one of you, just meditate on this because it summarizes everything we said and then has love as the overriding principle. It says, be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong, let all that you do be done in love. [00:49:09] Speaker A: Good. [00:49:10] Speaker B: It's amazing. Those two things feel like they fight. [00:49:12] Speaker C: They do. [00:49:13] Speaker B: Anyway. That's great. Great word. [00:49:14] Speaker A: Good word. We'll let that be our sign off. Thanks for tuning in further up and further in and we'll see you soon. [00:49:29] Speaker D: The mountains are magnets and you are the steel, the dangerous speed cheeks and the heady thin air beckoning, calling in, waving their hands, saying come on boys come Further up, further in. Neptune is roaring and shaking his face Swallowing islands and timbered ships but look to the glory it's there to be had and take to the oars or you'll wish that you did. Come on boys, don't you know the dragons out there? Dragons out there. Hey, hey. Come on boys, boys, don't be slow Cut down Leviathan go get the girl Come on boys, don't you know the dragons out there? Dragons out there. Come on boys, don't be slow Cut down Leviathan go get the girl. She's prettier than any sunset or sky. Bright as a flower all slender and wild. You swear that you've never seen anything more lovely is this river daughter before. She's a glorious thing. She's a glorious man. A bone out of Adam a garden again to sweet Take your strength and your courage in it See won't be a crown on your head. Come on, boys, don't you know the dragons out there? Dragons out there. Come on, boys, don't be slow Cut down Leviathan Go get the girls Come on boys, boys don't you know the dragons out there? Dragons out there Come on boys, don't be slow Cut down the v and go get the girl. Don't give any he to cowardly tongues there Glory out there. How dare to be One look to the king he's thrown down Goliath and cut off his head. Take courage now, son don't give any heed to cowardly to tongues there's glory out there. How there to be one look to the king he thr down God and cut off his head. Take us now, son Come on, boys, don't you know dragons out there? Dragons out there.