Why Men Fail to Lead | Ep 10

[00:00:16] Speaker A: Adam abdicating his role in the Garden of Eden. The men of Tower of Babel focusing on a tower instead of taking dominion and spreading throughout the earth. Barak, who refuses to go into the battle that God called him to unless Deborah goes with him. King Saul and his fear of people that causes him to disobey God and lose the kingdom. David, who chooses not to go to war and falls into one of the most infamous sins in human history. Peter, who denies Jesus before the crowd. Even Demas, who gets a passing mention by Paul, who says, for love of this present world has abandoned me. Men fail. It's real. We give in to the spirit of shrinking back rather than pressing in and failing to take hold of that which God has set before us. The thing that we know that actually Christ has already obtained the victory in we struggle, we fail. From Philippians 3:12, 15, we get this reminder and encouragement from Paul. He says, not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own brothers. I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind, straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Let those of us who are mature think this way. And if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you. Welcome to this episode of Word and Flesh podcast, a podcast from Riverview Baptist Church for Riverview Baptist Church. Thanks so much for joining us today. We are in part two of our discussion about men, particularly today, talking about men's struggles, the things that men ultimately fail to do, that God has called us to do. If you haven't caught episode or the first part of this, we would encourage you to go back and listen to part one where we talk about what a virtuous man looks like. Because again, it'll make more sense as you listen to this episode. So if that's you, you go ahead and push pause, go back and listen to the Virtuous man part one and then jump back into this episode. But again, thanks for joining us here again with the illustrious, the inimitable, the Motley Crew. [00:02:39] Speaker B: No, how about not [00:02:43] Speaker A: the very composed and, you know, proper crew of. [00:02:47] Speaker B: I don't know about that either. [00:02:48] Speaker A: But we're here, our elders, some of our elders here, Michael Bean and Ryan Anderson. Good to be here with you guys. [00:02:54] Speaker C: Yep, always enjoy it. [00:02:55] Speaker A: Yep, always enjoy. That sounded very sincere. [00:02:58] Speaker C: I do, I do. [00:03:00] Speaker A: Good. Well, so we're talking a bit today about what men are designed to do, but. And then the ways in which they fail, the ways in which men struggle and ultimately sometimes give in to the temptation to not do what we're called to do. Right. I started in our open with examples of men who very infamously failed to take dominion in the world where God told them to take dominion. Right. Where God put, you know, Adam in the garden, and he put Eve there to help him in that work and said, be fruitful and multiply. Fill the earth and subdue it. Right. [00:03:38] Speaker C: Yep. [00:03:39] Speaker A: And that is the dominion mandate. Right. And so as men, as we lead our homes, our families, God's church, that's our call. And there are ample temptations to go off the path in that call. [00:03:56] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. And, you know, I think this is connected a little bit to what we talked about in one of our earlier episodes. I don't remember which one, but essentially four realms. I think every man is called to lead in self, home, church, work. In some way. You are called not to be passive, but to step into the good things God has called you to do in those four realms. And so I think if you go back and you look at the men you listed in some way, that's where they failed. They were given a role as a leader, as a man in the home, in a place of work or a place of leadership, and just didn't step up in some way. And so it is something that's real for every one of us. It's something we all do. We all fail. [00:04:43] Speaker A: And. [00:04:44] Speaker C: But that's one of the things we're going to get into is just really looking at, okay, where are some places men are prone to do that, where we're apt to do that. [00:04:51] Speaker A: And the action verb that I think of when I think of where men fail, where men struggle, is the idea in this biblical term of shrinking back. That's the one that I go to the most. It's not all encompassing, but it took me to Hebrews 10:38 and 39. My righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him. But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls. And this idea of not shrinking back and drawing back from the calling of God and the things that he has set before us, which are daunting oftentimes, to say the least, but instead we press in. And again, that's why I started as well with Philippians 3, that we're called to press in and Men being called to lead are called to be the spearhead of that right. To press in and bring those that we're called to lead along with us in the kingdom work. [00:05:47] Speaker B: Yeah. Consider Jesus words. A man who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is not fit for the kingdom of God. And that is enough said. [00:05:59] Speaker C: That's good. [00:06:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:06:01] Speaker C: Well, let's ponder a couple things. You know, I think when it comes to specifics where men fail, one is shrink back. And I totally agree with that. Shrinking back includes things like passivity. It includes things like being kind of led by fear. It includes all of those kinds of things. I think another place where men tend to fail a lot is because I don't know how to lead. Well, kind of this overcompensating or sometimes that comes out in domineering. Sometimes it comes out in a male bravado or kind of like a male. Like machoness that, you know, a lot of times is really what the culture tells you. This is what a strong man looks like. But it's actually just this fake veneer of, yeah, I'm tough, I'm strong, I'm big, I'm super successful. And I just would look at those guys just as much as I would look to the passive guys and say, actually, you're just. You're failing just as much. [00:07:09] Speaker B: Well, they're both rooted in a very similar fundamental undertone, which is, I'm insecure. [00:07:14] Speaker C: Right? That's exactly right. [00:07:15] Speaker B: I'm insecure so I don't do anything, or I'm insecure so I over, over exert myself. Right. I walk into a room and my goal is to prove to everyone else that I'm the strongest man in the room. [00:07:26] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:07:27] Speaker B: Physically, intellectually, spiritually even. And both of those are undertoned by the same fundamental struggle, which is I'm insecure. I don't know who I am. [00:07:38] Speaker A: And isn't that just sort of characteristic on how sin and temptation works in us, in every area anyways, is that it goes after the most core thing that we're called to do and gives us a gazillion opportunities to abdicate that thing. So again, I just think about all these examples of men that assert themselves in ways that are meant to sort of be. Instead of taking godly dominion for God's kingdom in God's world like we're called to, I'm gonna go assert myself through a pile of money. Assert myself through being a gym rat and, you know, like, being able to lift 17 gazillion pounds assert myself through, I don't know, fill in the blank. Right? Like, all those kinds of things. And you can see on the nose, standing outside those, like, man, that's. That's terrible. Like, that's not right. But it's clear that that's a real temptation is to take dominion in this dumb, meaningless thing, because the real thing is actually very hard and scary. Right. And so it's. And that's the shrinking back. I think the shrinking back actually looks like a substitution of going, I'm gonna be awesome at this thing. It's like, that's not even awesome. I mean, it's cool to be in good shape, you know, and it's great to, like, do well in your career and, you know. [00:09:01] Speaker C: Right, right. Absolutely. [00:09:02] Speaker A: Use that money to build God's kingdom. But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about guys who, like, anchor their sense of identity and having done well as a man with this pile of money or this success or this string of women or. You know what I mean? Like, on and on and on. We can go with that stuff. So that's what sin tempts men to do, I think, is to abdicate and to, like, substitute taking godly dominion in God's world through God's kingdom with lifting up this, like, little thing that I mastered. [00:09:32] Speaker C: Yeah, no, that's. [00:09:33] Speaker A: Look at this. [00:09:34] Speaker C: Yeah, no, that's exactly great. I think, too, you know, I think of men and their struggles or men and their failures, and I'm going to focus in on married men for a minute, but I think it is failure to lead, in particular, your wife. And one of the reasons I say that is I think most men kind of have a grasp of, yeah, I'm supposed to lead my children. Like, I get that I got to teach them things, got to pass on things, got to discipline. But I think when it comes to leading your wife, well, I get a lot of questions as to, what does that actually look like? Like, pastor, what am I supposed to do? How do I know if I'm leading my wife? I get that a lot because men hear so much the phrase, happy wife, happy life, boo, or men here so much this idea of, just go, just get it done, just make it happen, and she'll follow. And so I think you do find men that either think leading well means making sure my wife is comfortable, or leading well just means that I have a set of goals, and I kind of run my house like a military base. And we get a lot of things done at a really high Level. And I would again say both of those are incomplete. [00:10:56] Speaker A: Ryan, why don't you like wives to be happy, dude? [00:10:59] Speaker B: Well, I think it is great for wives to be happy. I was gonna say be very careful [00:11:05] Speaker C: how you answer that. [00:11:06] Speaker B: Fundamentally dependent on what happy means and how happy is arrived at. [00:11:10] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay, well, so, Gaya, unpack that for a sec, because I think your boo was actually well placed on the happy wife, happy wives times. [00:11:19] Speaker B: I just can't help it. [00:11:20] Speaker A: No, but. But you're right, because that tends to be this trump card that's not even the right way to say it. But this thing that men will say where it's like, well, she wanted this, and, you know, happy wife, happy life. So I just, like. I just, like, didn't. I didn't. Even though it was not something that was good for her or me or our family or whatever, I just went with it because I don't want to fight that battle. And she's happy, which, by the way, to your point, she's not actually happy. [00:11:48] Speaker B: Right. [00:11:48] Speaker A: But she wanted in that situation. And even though it was not good [00:11:51] Speaker B: for anybody, whatever the reason, I hate that term. Well, I hate that term for a lot of reasons. One, because it's purely based in feminism, but also because it generally is directly tied to financial material. You know, my wife wanted this, so she got it. And it also, it just by nature forces the man to be passive and not think critically and strategically about how to lead and guide and provide. And just to say that there's a lot of people who. A lot of men who use that phrase whose wives are not happy because wives are Christian, wives are more happy that their husband is nourishing them spiritually and their children spiritually than they are happy that they got the new pair of shoes. And so it's just the entire phrase is dependent on a very bad definition of happiness and an awful definition of what it looks like to actually be the kind of man who causes your wife to flourish. [00:13:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:13:05] Speaker B: Which is not just give her whatever she wants. [00:13:07] Speaker A: Right. [00:13:07] Speaker C: Yeah. So I think this is where we're going, and this is where I think we're going to get to flesh right away. You know, we spent a lot of time in our women's episode talking about what it looks like for a woman to submit to her husband wisely, biblically, faithfully. I want us to talk just a moment. What does it then look like for a man to shepherd and lead wisely, biblically, faithfully? Because it is. If a woman is going to follow, and that is the Biblical design, the men need to understand the bar is high, the bar is real. And so what does that look like? How are even for now, the three of us? I think it just would be helpful to say what are ways we are trying to shepherd our wives? What does that look like? Just day to day? [00:13:59] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. I think we need to answer that question. I think we also need to just point out where the struggles of men most show themselves in that leadership. I do think we hit a little bit of the how are we shepherding our wives? At the end of the last episode on Manhood. But I think that I'll say this, I'll just jump off this real quick. I think that it's amazing to me, when I come home from work, we're sitting at the dinner table, I feel the Holy Spirit telling me, hey, why don't you talk about this passage of Scripture with your wife? And all of a sudden every possible excuse enters my head or it feels like the forces of evil are terrified of me going that way. And unfortunately, sometimes they win. Right? It's like, well, you know, I really just want to eat and then go do this project after dinner, you know, so it's like if I start this conversation, going to be here for a lot longer, which is insidious for me to even say, but that's the reality. And it's amazing how sometimes difficult it is to just bring up the spiritual conversation because Satan despises that and just put it out there often. [00:15:14] Speaker C: So one of the things then in terms of shepherding well, is speaking of spiritual things with your wife regularly. [00:15:22] Speaker B: Absolutely. And we should not even assume that that's remotely happening, because I don't think it is. [00:15:31] Speaker A: What if you feel like your wife is more spiritually mature than you are or that she knows the Bible better than you do? [00:15:35] Speaker C: Oh, that's good. [00:15:37] Speaker A: Well, serious. [00:15:38] Speaker C: Yeah, it's real. [00:15:39] Speaker A: It's real. And that's not even bad, right? Like, you know, maybe you're a newer believer and maybe your wife's been a believer longer than you or whatever the situation is. Or she grew up in a home where this Bible was there, but actually she came to the Lord later in life, whatever it is. How should a man do that when he goes, I don't know, she should probably be teaching me the Bible or she should be leading this. [00:16:05] Speaker C: So here's what I would say. Two things. Number one, to invite Bible reading with her together and admit I can learn from you. I want to learn from you on this. But here's the thing. Just Simply taking the initiative to say, we're going to build our lives and our marriage around God's word. And so I realize you know it better than me, but let's read it together, let's talk about it together. Let's pray together. That's spiritual leadership. I think that's a starting point. And then I think the other piece is just recognizing, hey, brother, if that's [00:16:40] Speaker B: you, grow, yeah, get in the study, [00:16:42] Speaker C: get around some other godly men that can sharpen you, that can train you, that can teach you, don't stay there long. But if she knows, I mean, like, again, if she's studied the Bible for years, it's going to be a minute. And so that's okay. But go ahead and invite spiritual conversation, invite spiritual moments into the relationship. That is leadership in and of itself. [00:17:06] Speaker B: I would just add, if that is how a man feels, it's especially important at all times in all places for men to be among the wise counsel of other men. I would say it's even more important in those kind of situations. And it's perfectly acceptable and faithful to for a season, as you are growing, as you're in the study, as you're diving in, to over rely on that counsel, to call your pastor, to call your elder, to call your, you know, your brother in Christ, say, hey, man, what do I do here? Yeah, over rely on the counsel. But also, I need to say that question does not negate your Genesis calling to lead. Just because my wife is smarter and that's sometimes very fair, or she knows that does not mean that she gets to bear the baton of leadership. You still lead, and you may for a time partner more significantly than you would at a later time, but you still lead. [00:18:02] Speaker C: Yeah, I think. Absolutely. And then I think the thing behind that, the reason it's hard for men is we hate being exposed. Of course men hate showing their weaknesses. And I think in that moment, just understand God is going to allow you to be made weak so that he can be strong, to show that weakness, expose that weakness, and then go get around some other godly men. Get around, spend time with your wife, spend time in the Word and grow. [00:18:33] Speaker B: And also just to say, you know, even if your wife is smarter than you and she's a believer, she's not going to be disappointed that you opened the Word to talk about it. She's going to be thrilled. Even if she has more to say, she's going to be thrilled that you sat down and said, let's talk about Jesus. So step into it. [00:18:56] Speaker C: Yeah. And the last thing on that is just, I think the funny thing too is if you know that your wife knows more about the Bible than you do, it's also probably true that she knows she knows more about the Bible than you do. And so to just like, you're already exposed, you're already there. So just admit it and move on. [00:19:16] Speaker A: Yeah, that's good. I'll say. One way that I have been convicted and I think have grown in leading my wife is, well, so it's 1 Peter 3:7. Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way. So no word in God's word is wasted. [00:19:42] Speaker C: Nope. [00:19:43] Speaker A: Right. [00:19:43] Speaker C: Every word is divine. [00:19:45] Speaker A: Every once in a while you'll read something and you'll be like, that's a weird way to put that right in the Bible. And if you don't understand it, it's not because the Bible messed up there, it's because you just don't understand it yet. Right. So my point is, you could imagine all sorts of things being filled in there. Live with your wives, and it could be anything, in a loving way. Yeah, whatever. But Peter says in an understanding way. And I think that's the more you consider that instruction, the more that speaks to what men really genuinely have to try to do. That doesn't come naturally. I mean, the second to second place to the happy wife, happy life thing is the kind of dismissive, like, all women are crazy. [00:20:33] Speaker B: Right? [00:20:33] Speaker A: I mean, you know, there's a lot of crazy out there, no doubt, you know, but like, but that dismissive attitude is not seeking to live with your wife in an understanding way. [00:20:45] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:20:45] Speaker A: Because you've decided you're not going to try to understand her. You're just going to go, she's crazy. I don't know. And again, all kinds of people act crazy in certain situations. Anyone acting even sinful in a situation doesn't mean that you're dismissed from acting in the way God has called you to behave. So my point there is that I've really had to consider what is that actually mean in my life for me to live with my wife in an understanding way? And I think it must mean something like me studying her more than I study anything. Like, I mean, I'll study God's word, but you know what I mean, the things in my life, me seeking to understand her fundamentally, like more than any other person, more than being, you know, like good at this or that thing or whatever, I'm called to live with her in a way to understand her doesn't mean that I'm called To endorse every single thing she says, does, thinks, wants, feels, rather, it means I'm called to understand the motivations behind those things, to study her, to consider her, to listen really carefully to her so that I can understand her and then better lead her. Because you can never lead and shape something you don't understand. [00:22:02] Speaker C: Absolutely. [00:22:03] Speaker A: And so I think that that command is one that has really sort of resonated for me for a long time, is am I seeking to really understand my wife? The gifts that God's given her that are really powerful for our family, the struggles that she has and how to address those in a non dismissive way. Not to just wave the hand like, oh, you're always like this, get over it. But instead, because that's not. Again, that's not effective, Right? So do I want to actually be effective in leading my wife or do I want to go, yeah, she's that way. It's ridiculous. I'm just, you know, whatever. She's just always going to be that way or, you know what I mean, with the things that she struggles with. Or am I actually going, I'm seeking because I do this in my business all the time, right? I go, okay, there's a problem. I'm going to leverage everything at my disposal to solve this, like to figure this out, to figure what's operating here and to solve it. And then I'm what? I'm gonna just mail it in when it comes to my wife and go, I don't know. It's hard. I don't know. Women are crazy. You know what I mean? I'll leverage all of my thought capital and all of my experience and all of the tools at my disposal to figure out something at work or some other difficult situation that I'm up against outside of my home. And then with my wife, I'm just gonna go, I don't know. Women are crazy. [00:23:28] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:23:28] Speaker B: All of those phrases are based in abdication. Happy wife, happy life, my wife is crazy, or my wife made me do this. All of those are based in abdication. What you are admitting is I didn't want to think critically about this, or I just mailed it in, I abdicated. And I actually never thought about it like that until just now. But that is what they're saying is I don't really want to deal with the nitty gritty. I just want to say and forget it. [00:23:57] Speaker C: Yeah. And if you go back to Genesis, I mean, that's exactly what Adam does when he gets called on the carpet is, why did you eat the forbidden fruit. Well, she made me do it. [00:24:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:24:06] Speaker C: The woman you gave me. And so, yeah, by definition, that is the insidious sin that so many men fall into when it comes to leadership. I think the other thing that when it comes to leading your wife is just embracing the reality that you are called to help refine her and that she has the right and the ability also to call out sin in your life. But. But in other words, you're called to help your wife become made more into the image and likeness of Jesus Christ, which means then, by definition, there will be moments where you disappoint her. There will be moments where you say, hey, we're not going to go that way, or, we're not going to buy this thing, or we're not going to. [00:25:00] Speaker B: We're not going to talk about people like this. [00:25:01] Speaker C: Yeah, we're not going to have this conversation about this family or whatever the case may be. And I just see so many men not stepping into that piece in particular. It's just like, hey, she's. Because. And I think this is part of what feminism has done, is like, we're totally equal. And so I can't shake the boat. I can't rock the boat. I can't do anything. And that then means that you don't ever help her become who God calls her to be, and you're not living with her in an understanding way. I think some men do that just to keep the peace. I think some men do that because they're maybe literally afraid that physical intimacy might get withheld later. [00:25:43] Speaker A: She's like, you're going to disappoint her, and that's going to play itself out. [00:25:46] Speaker C: Yeah. There's a reality. That's right. There's a reality. [00:25:49] Speaker A: There's a real thing that I think that every man has to consider that at least. Right. Even if he's married to the most conciliatory, kind, godly, gentle woman who would never play that card. He's afraid she might. Right? And I'm saying, like, every man has that reality where he goes, I gotta count the cost before I cross my wife here. [00:26:09] Speaker B: Right? [00:26:09] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:26:10] Speaker A: And again, men count costs a certain way. Right? That's what I'm saying. Like, that's real. [00:26:15] Speaker B: No, that's so real. And the odds of that happening are way less. If you have built up small, consistent deposits of trust over time where your advice and your wise counsel, according to scripture, has shown itself to lead to flourishing and lead to care and lead to honor, then when it comes to something that is Fairly significant by the Spirit working in your wife, she's going to see, okay, my husband, he's not perfect, but he has led us well here. And I have no real reason to totally deny him. But also, I think it's important to remember the implication of Ephesians 5, husband, love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the Word. In the same way, husbands should love their wives as everybody. If marriage is a picture of Christ in his church, then it is the obvious, direct, clear implication that it is the husband's not primary job. The Holy Spirit sanctifies, absolutely. But it is a calling and a function of a husband that [00:27:27] Speaker A: when your [00:27:28] Speaker B: bride is called home to eternity, she is more holier than when you met her. Why does she wear white? When you get married, the goal is you want her to become more and more and more white and pure before the Father so that she might be presented to the Lord blameless and without blemish. And that means, to Michael's point, to your point, some really hard conversations sometimes. Yeah. [00:27:54] Speaker A: This is a mystery. And I'm saying it refers to Christ and the church. Like when he talks about the union of the husband and wife. [00:28:01] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:28:01] Speaker A: That is like, inarguable in Scripture. And so good word. A husband is called to lead to shepherd his wife in sanctification, but never with harshness. [00:28:13] Speaker C: And that is why I think a lot of men also don't do it. I think if it's not the, you know, the withholding of connection and closeness and peace and intimacy, then it's also. Well, then I'm afraid I'm going to mess up and explode if she doesn't listen. And I think those are all things that are real, but those are not excuses to pull back. [00:28:37] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, I don't know. You know, if that's actually a genuine fear, then be a little vulnerable and have that conversation. [00:28:46] Speaker C: Good. [00:28:47] Speaker A: I want to lead you. Well, I love you. And I know that I'm called to lead, and I haven't always done that well. And I'm just going to be honest. I'm afraid that if I take the lead in this area and you push back, that it's going to accelerate and spin out of control and I'm going to get really angry. And that's just my confession to you. [00:29:08] Speaker C: I think that's professional. [00:29:09] Speaker A: Just be vulnerable with your wife for a second. Right. You're one flesh and so be honest that that's a struggle and you're trying to do it anyways. [00:29:20] Speaker C: I would say to that husband, if that's true, if you know that you struggle with anger, invite the church, invite men into that space and let them help you and shape you in that way. [00:29:30] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. It's never an excuse to abdicate. Like being afraid that I might mess up. I mean, again, spoiler, you gonna. So whatever. Right? Like, that's not an excuse to abdicate. And again, when a man abdicates his role, bad stuff happens. And I read the long list of it at the beginning of this episode, and there's a much longer list that was the abridged version. Right. [00:29:58] Speaker B: There's a great analogy to be had in the difference between, you know, preventative maintenance and crisis engine replacement in your car. You likely explode if that is your inclination on your wife. Likely because you've festered on something for far too long where, if you would have brought it up very early on, you likely would have had a far more temperate and measured response. Like an oil change. Right. We're working on this slowly together. We're not just, you know, because a lot of times, and I think wives sometimes get really rightfully frustrated because their husbands only show up in the hero moments. Right. And they're not really consistent or gentle or kindly corrective in all the small moments. It's just finally they get to their wit's end and it's an absolute crap show. Marriage requires significant preventative maintenance. Most of that you're going to find great help to do in the church, [00:31:03] Speaker C: I think, too, since we fleshed some of that out, I think let's back up just a minute and talk. And then we'll go into other realms of leadership for men. What are things that good leadership is not like when you're leading, you think about leading your wife. What are things? Definitely like, don't do this and call it leadership. [00:31:25] Speaker B: What do you think? [00:31:26] Speaker C: You look like you're smirking, so I thought you had something. [00:31:28] Speaker B: I'm just trying to put my filter on. [00:31:31] Speaker C: Well, I think, for one, I'm thinking [00:31:33] Speaker A: I like the unfiltered. [00:31:34] Speaker C: Yeah. The idea of obviously, number one, controlling her is wrong and sinful. That's not your call. I mean, a mistake I made early on. I'll just be totally honest, and I mean, to my shame, was kind of trying to micromanage in ways that just weren't helpful. In particular, the explicit example. And Tara and I laugh about this now. Where you're going is, I wanted a spotless home. [00:31:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:00] Speaker C: I Mean, I wanted it absolutely spotless. And so I thought, I'm going to teach Tara how to do this, and I'm going to follow her around the house and just show her all the places that this is what it looks like to keep this clean and this clean and this clean. [00:32:11] Speaker B: You're the worst. [00:32:12] Speaker C: That did not go well for me. That did not go well for me. [00:32:16] Speaker B: Wow. [00:32:16] Speaker A: I would never have expected that. [00:32:19] Speaker C: And so, you know, that's. That I thought was good leadership at the time, in retrospect, was idiocy. Okay. And so, yeah, there are things that we've got to learn. Like, just because you think it's leadership, don't attach controlling or manipulation. Certainly micromanaging these kind of things. That's not leadership. [00:32:42] Speaker A: I'll say one that I struggled with. I think it's actually the other direction. [00:32:46] Speaker C: Okay. [00:32:47] Speaker A: I am pretty laissez faire with just people. That's. My general disposition is like, I'm going to do my very best with my stuff, and I'm going to do a lot of stuff because I like doing a lot of stuff, and I think I can do everything. It's not true, but you do your best with all your stuff, it's going to be great. And I just leave it. And that's not actually leadership. In other words, I viewed early in marriage. This is definitely was true for me, by and large, I did not view my wife as. I don't know if this is the right word, but as my responsibility. I didn't view my wife as someone that I was actually called to lead and shepherd in a way where it was like, she's not called the same way to me. You know, like, I'm called to guide, lead, shepherd her. And again, not in a demeaning way, but that as a husband. Right. And so I tended to be more like, I'm gonna read my Bible and attend to my spiritual life. And I hope she's doing that for her. I don't know. I mean, you know, I sit next to her church, and we're super involved in church. It wasn't like we were kind of, like, barely there. I was on staff at a church right out of college, right after we got married. But I didn't think about a kind of care and shepherding over my wife's spiritual growth that actually I'm called to. I just thought, she's in charge of herself, I'm in charge of myself. And if everybody does that, then everything will be fine. She is in charge of herself, but I'm also entrusted to care for, for and shepherd her and that man. That was really hard for me. I still don't know that I do it super well all the time or a lot of the time I struggle with that because I tend to think about taking care of my own self. Right. And it's like, well, everybody's supposed to [00:34:55] Speaker B: take care of themselves. [00:34:56] Speaker A: And so that was a real struggle for me. And I don't know if a lot of men struggle with this or not, but because I can control my. My little self and the things that I'm doing, and it's safer or something than stepping into a role where you lead and go, I'm gonna care for your soul in a way as well. So that was my struggle. [00:35:20] Speaker C: That's good. [00:35:21] Speaker B: Yeah, that's really great. I sympathize with that a little bit. There's things that I really just don't care about, you know, like, I don't really have tremendous preferences about whether or not my kids are vaccinated. I don't really have tremendous preferences about what exactly we eat, so long as it's not soup every night. So maybe I do have preferences. I don't know. You know, I don't have. [00:35:47] Speaker A: Say more about soup. [00:35:48] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I'm okay. [00:35:49] Speaker C: You know, I don't really have leafy greens. Do you eat leafy greens? [00:35:53] Speaker B: I don't have tremendous preferences about house decorations or anything. So I'm kind of like, don't care. Do what you got to do. I do wrestle sometimes with the difference between like, good delegation and just abdicating. I think the more the mistake that I have made and probably continue to make. I've only been married for two and a half years. Is assuming conversations that I feel like are heart level are heart level for my wife. Talking about dreams of homes and projects and even some ministry situations that are on my heart. Making the assumption that that also was a heart level conversation for my wife, which often those are two very different conversations, but also I think another one that we just had to learn. We got married. I was already pastoring full time. Been at our church for two years at the time. Had very defined rhythms, very defined structures of care. And what leadership is not is saying, well, I'm going to go minister over here and you're going to go minister over here. It is, well, let's get on the same page about who we're going to reach together. [00:37:22] Speaker A: That's good. [00:37:23] Speaker C: Yeah, that I would say is the last thing I was going to say. That leadership is not. Is, hey, we're Going to divide up the roles of our home so firmly and explicitly that you take care of this thing and this thing and this thing, and I will never touch it. And I will take care of this thing and this thing and this thing, and you never touch it, and. And we'll kind of coexist that way. Keep score about who's doing what. That's a horrible way to lead or to run a home or anything. [00:37:54] Speaker A: Frankly, what I'm hearing you say is that occasionally. This is crazy. You think husbands should have to change diapers? Sometimes, [00:38:03] Speaker C: as painful as it may be, yes. [00:38:05] Speaker B: Do some dishes. [00:38:06] Speaker C: Do some dishes. [00:38:07] Speaker B: Hold some laundry. [00:38:07] Speaker C: Exactly. [00:38:08] Speaker B: I hate sweep the floor. [00:38:09] Speaker C: I hate laundry. I hate folding laundry. But there are times where I will fold laundry. [00:38:14] Speaker A: Again, it's one thing to say the home is the wife's domain. Correct. So you're not undermining that under your authority as a husband. Her domain is to care for, nurture all the things that go into caring for that home. You grabbing some laundry or changing a diaper or doing those things is not you doing a feminine thing. Right. It's not you. It's not like it's sacrificial. [00:38:47] Speaker B: So it's manly. [00:38:48] Speaker A: Yeah. Again. And then you go, well, yeah. How do leaders lead? Well, it's like, well, the best. I actually think, you know, a lot of times of the best sort of warrior leaders you think about in battle are the guy who, like, is in the very front, like, when they go charge or something. [00:39:04] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:39:04] Speaker A: He's with the men. With the men. He's not like. He's not like, best of luck, guys. Hope it goes well. I mean, it's not. That's not my job. [00:39:10] Speaker B: Why do you think two of our most fondly remembered presidents are remembered so well? [00:39:14] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:39:14] Speaker B: George Washington and Dwight Eisenhower. Why? [00:39:17] Speaker C: There are warriors that were with the men. Yeah. [00:39:19] Speaker B: They went and fought together. [00:39:20] Speaker A: Yeah. And again, they didn't abdicate their role as leaders, but they were there with them, like showing courage and. And taking hits and. Oh, yeah, you know, that kind of thing. You just. When you see that, you know it's [00:39:35] Speaker B: right, I'll fight with that guy. [00:39:36] Speaker A: You know, it's go. And so, yeah, like, I think being that in the home is the calling. It's not saying. It's not like wife. You know, you're not even. You're not. There's nothing left for you to do because the husband has to do all that stuff and all this stuff. No, that's not. That's not what you're saying. [00:39:53] Speaker C: Right. Well, and to connect it to just a little bit of what I preached on in terms of the virtuous man. Thinking about if men are called to bear burdens, if that's one of the primary things God's given us to do. I mean, you should wake up every morning, man, and ask yourself, okay, what is the burden my wife needs me to bear today? [00:40:12] Speaker B: That's a good question. [00:40:13] Speaker C: Maybe the burden is the dishes. Maybe the burden is some discipline things. Maybe the burden is sit down and invest in her soul. There's actually likely more than one. But what is the primary two or three burdens that my wife needs me to bear that and go be a warrior in those fields. And so just on a practical level, again, I'm not trying to make myself a hero. Tara could tell you a million ways I've not done all these things well. But right now she's doing long term subbing at the school. She's doing extra income, helping us have a little bit of extra money. It's about to wrap up. I am so thankful, but I've done more toilet scrubbing and dishes and mopping than I've done in a long time. Why? Because she's doing some extra things to help the financial situation at home. And I know that's a burden I can take off of her shoulders. [00:41:03] Speaker B: And you always feel a lot more thankful for your wife in those moments. [00:41:07] Speaker C: Oh, man, that is so true. And so it is humbling. It is good. It is sanctifying for me to step into those things. And so I think just for men to ponder, like, if you want to lead, well, what is the burden that she needs you to meet and go at it, Go get it. That's what you're called to do. That would be the kind of the way I would summarize it just in terms of day to day. Any other thoughts on leading the wife? We can go to some other areas of leadership. [00:41:38] Speaker A: I guess family worship kind of falls under that. Or did you want to go there? [00:41:42] Speaker C: Yeah, no, that's good. [00:41:43] Speaker B: I want to go there. [00:41:44] Speaker C: Yeah, go for it. [00:41:45] Speaker B: Well, I think it's interesting as you [00:41:47] Speaker C: read, [00:41:49] Speaker B: you know, significant works of church history, especially as you read works of pastoral church history. You know, famous pastor like Richard Baxter, who's kind of known as like a spearhead in pastoral ministry, he would go, you know, he made it his mission to visit every single family in his church at least once a year. At least that was his goal. Whether or not he did that perfectly, I have no idea. But that's at least what he wrote in his book. And one of the questions he would never leave without asking was, how is your family worship? Is dad reading and praying with his kids and his wife? It has always been, always been the expectation in the Christian life that men are taking intentional time to pass down the deposit of faith to their children. Always been the. Except for the last 50 to 75 to 100 years, it has been, in fact, you can read significant, tremendous amounts of church history where men were church disciplined because they were not leading their homes in family worship. And I think right now we're seeing an attempt to recover that. And it's met with serious pushback because culture has convinced us that there's a lot of good things that can form our kids. I have no doubt that kids doing sports can be particularly informative. I have no doubt about that. I have no doubts that little girls doing gymnastics can be particularly formative. I think it can be. Or name any activity. I think any activity, well, so far as it's not sinful, can be particularly formative. But it is the teaching of scripture and the historic understanding of the church that the most formative act a family can do together is read the Bible, pray and worship the Lord. And it is the responsibility of the man to not abdicate and not be passive and read the Bible and pray with his family. There is no mistaking that you must do it. [00:44:07] Speaker C: That's good. I would agree with that 100%. Yeah. I mean, I think for us as a church family, I do see a resurgence and a new interest in a lot of homes and a lot of men about how do I do this and how do I lead my family, how do I pray with my wife, how do I pray with my kids? And the short version that I would just give you is almost anything, no matter how, like, feeble or unskilled you may feel at that. Almost anything is better than nothing. [00:44:43] Speaker B: Just do something. [00:44:45] Speaker C: Do something. Pray with your kids. Just look, open up the Bible and tell them, hey, this is the one or two verses that I read that have really stuck with me over the years. [00:44:56] Speaker B: Amen. [00:44:56] Speaker C: I mean, whatever. Just be faithful and God will use it. [00:45:01] Speaker B: Yeah, I was just going to say that the standard for faithful family worship is not perfection. [00:45:07] Speaker C: Right. [00:45:08] Speaker B: I don't get perfection. Right. Like, it is being faithful. It is. If you get three or three or four nights a week, amazing. If you can just pray with your kids on the way to school before they go, do it. If you can spend significant time at the dinner table reading a chapter as a family and Singing it. Do it. Yeah, do it, do it. Just do something. [00:45:31] Speaker A: Press it in and take some more ground on it. But, yeah, I think that's such a great word. Something is better than nothing, because two reasons why. One is, when you're doing nothing, anything feels like a lot. But what gets put forward a lot of times as exemplary feels literally impossible. Oh, yeah, because there are. I mean, listen. And there's great saints throughout Christian history who will talk about. I mean, I think you've talked to one of y'. All Talked about him in a sermon not too long ago. I can't remember who it was. Was it Spurgeon or somebody who talked. We talked about their family worship and the time they would spend in prayer with the family. Beautiful. Yeah. That's not. I don't do it that well as some of these people that we hold up as exemplary. I'm not saying we shouldn't hold these people up, but sometimes we look at that and go, gosh, I can. I don't know how you and I would start doing that. And then you kind of just don't start. You should just start. You should just start just. Yeah. Again, like, open God's word. Five minutes is better than zero minutes. It's a lot better than zero minutes. [00:46:32] Speaker B: Yeah. There's a great book in our faith at Home center called Family Worship. I mean, it's like very, very small book. And Dr. Whitney says ten minutes. Yeah, ten minutes a day. Surely we can have ten minutes somewhere. [00:46:44] Speaker A: Surely. And I think also. And we've talked about this a lot, is availing yourself of the time sometimes that gets wasted. Now, dinnertime has kind of been a debated one in our home about whether or not that's the right time for family worship. Right now. That's the time. Because we often eat dinner way later than we would like to, but just the way our life rhythm is and stuff. And it's like, well, it's gonna be now, or it's probably not gonna happen. And so just our family rhythm. I kind of finally had to decide, I'm eating cold or I go microwave it after we're done with the story. Because that I just. Because we stopped doing it at dinner for a while because it was hard to keep the little ones under control and stuff. And then, you know, like, people are going back for seconds and getting up and water and. Anyways. But so it was like, well, that is not the right time. And guess what ended up happening. We just didn't do family worship in a while. I finally went, okay, for my Life, my family's life rhythm right now, it's just gonna have to be at the dinner table. That's just when we're gonna do it. But I don't. I would actually rather it not be there. But that's just where we are. And I'm calling that a W for now. I love it. And then the same thing with, we talk about windshield time a lot. It doesn't mean that every time you're in the car going anywhere that you [00:48:01] Speaker B: have to like have a spiritual lecture. [00:48:03] Speaker A: Yeah, spiritual lecture. Although I probably err on the side of doing that. That's my son. [00:48:07] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm sure he appre. [00:48:10] Speaker A: Sometimes. Yes, I know. But man, if you're never using windshield time with your children to disciple them to have I think even like fun spiritual conversations to ask interesting questions, to practice scripture memory together, even just to listen to some Christ centered, Bible informed worship music, then you're missing a massive moment that by the way counts as counts towards family discipleship. [00:48:39] Speaker B: Agreed. [00:48:39] Speaker A: Like windshield time counts. [00:48:41] Speaker B: I think that car time is one of the best places family can implement a non technology policy now, aside from road trips. [00:48:48] Speaker A: Yeah, right, right. But I mean like we're going here, there and yon. [00:48:52] Speaker B: We're going 10 minutes down the road. You can't spend 10 minutes off that dumb device. [00:48:55] Speaker A: Right. [00:48:55] Speaker B: What a great time. We're in the car, let's chat. [00:48:58] Speaker A: The other place that we've done it that is fairly consistent is just literally at bedtime. So we'll do a Bible story. A lot of times there's something at the dinner table again, that is not every night, but at bedtime. And our kids are now like bedtimes are layered. So many different. With five kids it's insane. But with the little ones it's a hymn or two. Pam always has a second one that she wants to throw out there. So I'm like, all right. I mean, how are you gonna say no to them wanting to sing another hymn? It's actually literally capitalizing, how about yes, yes. So, so a hymn or two and a brief prayer with them as they go to bed. And I speak like the blessing or the Lord bless you and keep you. The Lord make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you. The Lord lift up his countenance on you and give you peace. And sometimes I leave off the last word and give you. And then Pam goes, peace. So the bedtime moment is critical as well. There's other moments too, but for my home, leveraging those moments and those are fragmented. Right. Like windshield time is a thing. Dinner time sometimes happens. Sometimes we don't have dinner together because there's a baseball game or there's a whatever. But we do it when we can, at dinner time and then at bedtime. And I don't know if that's what I would prescribe as the perfect model of family worship, but that's us trying to lean into those moments and make it consistent to where our kids. My kids grow up and they go, like, dad led our home in following the Lord and reading the Bible and praying and singing hymns, and he cared [00:50:33] Speaker B: about that a lot more than he cared about my batting average. [00:50:36] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:50:36] Speaker B: Suffice it to say, this will look different for every family. And actually, that's a good thing. But what it can't look like is nothing, because that is sin. [00:50:45] Speaker C: Yep. Amen. Amen. And to that, to your point, for both of you, just. I mean, Deuteronomy 6, we know it. Hero, Israel. The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Shall love the Lord your God with all your heart. I'm going to move down to verse seven. You shall teach them diligently to your children, and you shall talk with them when you sit in your house, when you walk, by the way, that's windshield in the car. And when you lie down, that's bedtime. And when you rise, that's morning time. And so I commend you, man. I think that's exactly the prescription is integrate it into life. Make it normal to speak of Jesus just in life. [00:51:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:21] Speaker C: And then that will make the dinner table a little more natural. And so, yeah, I think that's the [00:51:28] Speaker A: more it dispels awkwardness, for sure. Right. [00:51:30] Speaker B: And. And if you don't do it early, it's gonna be really hard to start later, because what teenager wants to sit down and do something they've never done? [00:51:36] Speaker A: Although if you haven't started it, just go ahead and start. [00:51:38] Speaker B: Start. [00:51:39] Speaker C: Don't. [00:51:39] Speaker A: It's gonna be awkward. Get over, of course, and start it. And then it'll get less awkward. [00:51:43] Speaker B: One of my favorite things about being a dad of a toddler is somehow, even from the youngest age, they expose what they know the rhythms to be or what they see a lot. So one of the things Annie has lately been doing is she will pick up anything in the house and use it as a phone. [00:52:01] Speaker C: Like, little mirror. Yeah, man, little mirror. [00:52:03] Speaker B: I. On the phone that much. She's like, hello. Hello. Pick up the magnet on the fridge or whatever. But the other thing at night, and this is to Abby's Credit, really. We have the biggest storybook Bible. And, you know, Annie says two words at nighttime. Baba, baba, Baba. And then when she's done with her baba, she says Bible, and she'll go pick up her biggest storybook Bible. And sometimes it's, you know, sometimes it's on the nights where I'm like, I'm tired. I really want to just. [00:52:36] Speaker C: I've never felt that. [00:52:37] Speaker B: Yeah. Ever. I just want to lay down. [00:52:39] Speaker A: Yes. [00:52:39] Speaker B: I just, baby girl. I just want to lay down on the couch. She's like, Bible. I'm like, that's sinful to say the [00:52:45] Speaker A: Lord speaking to me. [00:52:47] Speaker B: That's right. [00:52:48] Speaker C: No, And I think those are all really good examples of what it looks like to lead spiritually. Men in the home. I mean, I think those are the kinds of things it's really. I think sometimes we. We make it almost mystical and this really, like, ethereal, strange thing that we don't know how to attain. It's actually just doing the daily things of life and making sure that you always point back to Jesus as you do it. And so to me, that makes it so much less threatening. It's like, oh, okay, this is doable by God's grace, I can do this. You got something, Ryan? [00:53:25] Speaker B: It's way less threatening when you are faithfully leading yourself. [00:53:30] Speaker C: Correct. [00:53:31] Speaker B: Because it's an overflow. It's not a forcing anything. [00:53:34] Speaker C: You can't manufacture it. Yeah. Agree with that. And I think that's where we can start to maybe wrap up. But just the idea of, you know, leading in other areas. As a man, I go back to the idea of taking initiative. You know, I. Whether I don't care, like on the ball field with my son, I'm trying to teach him right now, like, take initiative. Don't wait for the coach to say, run to second base. [00:54:04] Speaker B: Go get the ball. [00:54:04] Speaker C: When the ball gets hit, run to second base. Just take initiative. Same thing at work. If you know the next right thing to do, do it. Do what? Do it is the right good thing to do at work. Be a blessing to your boss, be a blessing to the people around you. And certainly when it comes to the home or the church, if you see a gap in the church and, you know, like, hey, they could really use some extra people down in kid zone. But unless somebody asks, I'm not doing it, man. Step up, jump into that, Fill that gap. Bear that burden. Be that man. Those are the kinds of men that, frankly, God uses to change the world. [00:54:46] Speaker B: Taking initiative at the things that matter are what separates great men. From just normal men. Yeah. I think it was John Wesley or someone who said, my greatest fear in life is being an expert at something that doesn't matter. I think one of the things that the world has used to satisfy temporarily the hearts of men is by encouraging them to take initiative in things that feel like they matter. And inevitably those things always take away your initiative from being able to pursue your wife and to spend settled time with your kids and to serve your church in exemplary ways. Because, well, I'm taking initiative over here. I don't have time to take initiative over here. And that makes you feel good, but this is what actually makes you great and faithful and a legacy of godliness. [00:55:42] Speaker A: Taking initiative is the opposite of abdicating. [00:55:45] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:55:46] Speaker A: Exactly right. I mean, I think that brings us literally full circle in this episode, is that taking initiative is what we're called to do, is to, like, press in. Yep, press in. Don't draw back. [00:55:56] Speaker C: Yep. [00:55:57] Speaker A: But press in. Any. Any final words for men on any [00:56:00] Speaker C: of this final thing? I would just say to men in terms of. Of wrestling with struggles or weaknesses. You know, we didn't even get into hardly like, kind of ongoing sin that a lot of men struggle with, but just that Jesus is the ultimate man. And if you watch Jesus, if you study his life, he is not passive. He is pursuing people. He doesn't wait when his disciples. I mean, he'll look at him in the eye and say, oh, view a little faith. [00:56:26] Speaker A: Like you, you kind of blew it. [00:56:28] Speaker C: But I love you. I'm here. And I think that's what it is, is look to Jesus, pursue the way he pursues, love the way he loves. Be gentle the way he's gentle. And you will be a good man because he'll work in you and through you. [00:56:47] Speaker A: And so the king of kings, right, the king of kings, look to him in his gentleness and his kindness and also his dominion. [00:56:56] Speaker C: That's right. [00:56:56] Speaker A: Like, that's the amazing two things that are held out at the same time. [00:56:59] Speaker C: Absolutely. [00:57:00] Speaker A: It's like he's the king of kings. And he has commissioned you, my friend, to go out and take dominion for his kingdom. [00:57:09] Speaker C: That's right. Be crazy. [00:57:09] Speaker A: It's not your dominion. It's not your kingdom. [00:57:11] Speaker C: Right. [00:57:11] Speaker A: It's his kingdom. But, man, he has put you out there to go and take ground for the kingdom. [00:57:16] Speaker C: That's right. [00:57:16] Speaker A: So go do it. I love it. Be courageous, I think. [00:57:19] Speaker C: And to me, the. And I'll shut up after this. But the difference is take initiative versus taking control. Jesus is always in control. He's in the driver's seat. You're not going to be in control. You don't know what tomorrow holds. Don't try to take control. Just take initiative. Do what he's called you to do. Step into those things and God will be God. [00:57:40] Speaker B: I think just a final encouraging word to men is one of the greatest medicines for becoming a more godly, refined man is to spend time with more godly, refined men. Psalm 119 I am a companion of all who fear you. My inner circle is, in other words, people who are chasing after Jesus and men. When a pastor or a godly friend or someone you know tries to go there with you, to go to the depths of your heart, go there with them. Don't try to change the subject to the weather. Don't talk about your newest car or your golf handicap. Let's talk about Jesus. Let's talk about sin. Let's talk about loving our wives. Don't deflect and surround yourself with companions who fear God more than anything else. [00:58:38] Speaker A: Good. Let us not be those who shrink back, but press in to what God has set before you. Take dominion under the king for the kingdom further up and further in. We'll see you soon. Sam. [00:59:46] Speaker C: J. J. [01:00:38] Speaker A: Ra.