Episode Transcript
[00:00:17] Speaker A: What is a woman?
That's not the first time anybody's asked that question recently.
And the culture has all kinds of ideas about what a woman is, what a woman is supposed to do.
The culture has inverted in many ways what a woman has always been and what cultures have understood women to be best at and designed for. And American culture has gotten this answer just so horribly wrong that you would almost think it was on purpose. And we might even get into that in another episode. But this episode, we're going to ask, what does God say a woman is, in other words, is designed for?
And what would it then be to be a virtuous woman? Welcome to this episode of the Word and Flesh podcast. Wow, that was a hot, cold open right there.
But I don't think it's going to be overly spicy, because really, we're going to just be anchored in God's Word and we want to look at what it says. The reason that it's controversially at all is when you take God's Word and then you read it to the culture, and the culture, like, screeches, like the demons coming out of the possessed women in the Bible, you know, or men or whomever. But, like, that's literally the kind of screeching you hear from the culture whenever you literally just present the light of God's Word into the darkness that the culture has projected onto women. And I say that because I think that the culture's idea about women has actually harmed women dramatically and men and marriages and the entire culture. But so what we want to do is hold up the light of God's Word to the culture and say, wow, these are really different. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness does not overcome it. Right. So there you go.
Somebody help me there.
[00:02:07] Speaker B: Yeah, that's good.
[00:02:08] Speaker A: Okay, so give us our definition, because as we work through this, what we're doing right now is we're doing a sermon series at Riverview on biblical manhood and womanhood and what that looks like in the home as the sort of the foundational unit of society and of the church. Right. And so we're spending some time on that, and we mean for these podcast episodes to really complement those things. Right. To go alongside them, to flesh them out a little bit. So that's what we're doing. And this is probably part 1 of 2 ish on what a virtuous woman is, partly because I didn't have a whole ton of time to record this particular episode, but also because we actually planned it that way from the Beginning that, we had kind of two different chapters on virtuous womanhood for both of these. Michael, you've already, in your sermon on virtuous womanhood, introduced a definition about virtuous womanhood. And we want to use that to kind of, you know, riff off of as we talk about this a little bit. So why don't you read that to us and we're just going to like, jump into a couple of those for this episode.
[00:03:11] Speaker B: Yeah.
Essentially, the definition that we shared in the sermon series is this, that a virtuous woman is a female. And again, once again, we have to say that and make it explicit. It is an adult female who nurtures and cultivates those in her life with gentle strength, wisdom, and then joyful partnership. And that's a loaded term under God's authority. That's. And so really unpacking again, that these ideas don't come from us as pastors. They don't come from a textbook or a history book. They come from God himself. And that actually, when we do things his way, that's where life's going to be found. That's where the good life, the virtuous life exist. And so we're going to look at then, what is, what does it mean for a woman to nurture? What does it mean for her to cultivate? What does it mean for her to have a joyful partnership with the authority structures God has put into her life?
[00:04:14] Speaker A: Good. And I have something I'm going to kind of dig into a little bit more in our what is a virtuous man Episode. But I think it's good to ask, well, what do I mean by virtuous? Right. And I'll dig into the background of that word a little bit more in the virtuous manhood episode.
But suffice to say, when we're talking about what a virtuous woman is, what we mean is what is it like for a woman to live into? I'm not sure I like the way I just said that, but I'm just going to stick with it. To live into the way God designed for her to be. In other words, to acknowledge God's true design, which is, by the way, distinct from how God designed man. Again, these are revolutionary thoughts right now in our culture, but is different and distinct from in design.
Enroll both in the church and in the home. Right. And all these things. And so we're going to look into that a little bit. But the question about what is a virtuous woman really is a question of what would it look like for a woman to be living in accordance with God's design? Absolutely, I think. Is that fair?
[00:05:19] Speaker B: No, that's exactly right. And the reason, again, what is the connection with this and the idea of growing in grace for us as a church? Well, if you go back and you look at our core passage about grace, growing In Grace, in 2 Peter, chapter 1, verse 5, he says, for this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith. And the very first characteristic, he says, is with virtue.
So there is something for men and women to aim at that we're supposed to supplement our faith with. And we're saying that thing is essentially the Greek idea of virtue, which would be the way that you find virtue is you fulfill your role by your design. You look at your design and then you do that, Whatever that leads you to, to the best and fullest of your ability.
And so for us as humans as a whole, that's love God, love God and love people. But then from there, it breaks out from male and female. What does that look like?
[00:06:21] Speaker C: Yeah, I just think it's important to say, according to scripture, there is a definition of biblical womanhood. And the reason we have to say that is because one of the underlying most fundamental components of feminism is that there actually isn't a definition.
[00:06:37] Speaker A: Right.
[00:06:38] Speaker C: There's no definition.
[00:06:39] Speaker A: That's the whole. What is a woman?
I mean, it's literally played out in a. Wasn't it a Supreme Court.
[00:06:45] Speaker C: Yeah, Justice. Justice, what is a woman? And she answered, I'm not a biologist, I can't answer the question.
[00:06:50] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:06:51] Speaker C: But one of the. If you go back and read really earliest first and second wave feminism writings, you'll see them arguing that there is no definition. A woman is what you think it is, and there is a definition. And our job is to unpack that definition according to scripture and be okay with those guardrails and roles, because they're good.
[00:07:08] Speaker B: Yeah. And I just want to add to that and say that, you know, the culture has told us again, a story for the last almost hundred years, that there is a story that they have that is better than the biblical story.
And our hope, I mean, through this podcast this morning, is to say to you, no, actually we think the biblical story is more exciting, more compelling and more life giving than the story that the rest of the world is telling you.
[00:07:36] Speaker A: Align with God's design and you will have more joy. Yeah, you're not going to have hard stuff. Right. You know, I mean, but yeah, you will have more joy. Let me just say one final little thing before we kind of get into those two pieces of definition we went to for this episode, which is to say, I, I think it is critical that we go, okay, virtue, broadly.
We could itemize what virtuous things are. You know, sexual purity, right? Love God, love your neighbor, things that we would say these things are virtuous.
But if we're going to talk about a virtuous woman and a virtuous man, then we do, we must say things that are distinct to a woman in virtuous woman and things that are distinct to a man in virtuous. Because in other words, if we just did an episode on virtuous womanhood and we just talked about, broadly, virtue, and we did a topic, we could just actually copy paste that for the manhood one and be done. Right? So it is critical that we go. There is a distinction, Right. And so anyways, I just wanted to articulate that because there's virtue, broadly, and that's good to talk about and understand as well. Right. But we're talking about how then does it, does it apply in some specific ways for a woman's life and how she lives and for a man. So there you go. I just want to put that clarification out there because I think that has to guide how we think about it on both sides.
So we have a female who nurtures and cultivates and then the joyful partnership under God's authority. I think we'll hit those two, I think in the bit of time that we have right here. And then we'll probably save some other stuff for some more episodes. So nurtures and cultivates. Let's start with that one. Nurtures and cultivates. Why would you say such a bigoted thing is that a woman is designed to nurture? Michael, come on now.
[00:09:27] Speaker B: Yeah, I know.
[00:09:28] Speaker A: Come on. I know.
[00:09:29] Speaker B: That's offensive.
Again, so we're looking at the Bible and we're looking at God's design. And so if you go all the way back to Genesis, God makes Adam and he puts him in the garden. And it's very explicit that there is not a suitable helper that exists for him at first.
And God in his infinite wisdom, then goes and creates Eve and literally, this is interesting, says that he brings her, he presents her to Adam, he gives her as a gift to Adam to meet the need that Adam had, a very real need, that he was alone in the world, in a sense. And so a woman, by definition, even before, she's going to be literally the mother of every living human.
And so that's Nurture. All kinds of nurture attached to that. But then she's given to Adam to nurture him because he was alone in the world.
[00:10:27] Speaker A: So, yeah, first moment in the scripture when God says it is not good. Right? Because we've had this thing. And again, you read Genesis and you should read it sort of like true, but also like a poem because it's kind of structured that way. And you see this.
[00:10:41] Speaker B: Yeah, Genesis.
[00:10:42] Speaker A: It was good. It was good. And then God goes, it is not good. Yeah, right. And so now, again, we don't have time for this, but I think it's at least worth momentarily highlighting that God could have just made Adam and Eve, boom, same time. Both out of dirt. Boom. And they would have been complete co equals. Right. He could have literally just formed them both out of dirt and said, now you two are married, God. It's not like God got surprised by the fact that it was not good for man to be alone. Right. Where God was.
[00:11:14] Speaker B: Right?
[00:11:14] Speaker A: Whoa.
Who could have thought? Right?
[00:11:17] Speaker B: Right.
[00:11:17] Speaker A: So, so why does God play out this drama this way? I think it's to instruct us. It's not because God's figuring things out as he goes or whatever. Right, of course. I think it's to teach us. And so God makes Adam, he gives him work. We're going to talk about that more in the episode on virtuous manhood.
And then he is not good for him to be alone. I'll make a helper suitable for him. And so he makes woman out of his rib. I love the point about God brings her to Adam and. And then she fulfills a very specific role for Adam distinct from the role Adam was made for. Right. I mean, they work together. Right. Those roles are meant because then once that is together, then that's good.
[00:11:57] Speaker B: No, I think, I think, yeah, that's exactly right. And the other thing that I guess we can go ahead and get into is, you know, I mean, you can see this from really every aspect.
Women literally speak more than men. There's been studies done.
Women speak more than men. They have more words on a given day than men do. I don't remember what the quota is for the average man. It's like 10,000 words.
But the point is this, that women are literally more relational. They enjoy conversation, they talk more.
Their bodies, as you've pointed out, are made literally to give life.
[00:12:36] Speaker A: This is part of what we discussed as we were thinking about this episode. Look at how God literally does designed the anatomy of a woman. It's to nurture a baby. In her body and then feed the baby with her body.
[00:12:49] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I mean, those are things by definition, men cannot do and shouldn't pretend to do. Right.
[00:12:55] Speaker A: Radical thought in 2026.
[00:12:56] Speaker B: Yep, that's radical.
And so those are. When we say that a woman is made to nurture, then by definition, in order to be virtuous, she must embrace that and look to nurture the people that God has placed in her life.
To push back against that and say, well, I'm going to just model my life after a man, and I'm going to be a boss and I'm going to do this, and I'm going to. Like, you're denying something really good that God has made you to do that you can do in a really unique way that men cannot.
[00:13:33] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:13:34] Speaker A: And I think the trick of feminism, and again, not to dive into that too deeply, but was to try to strip away the good that God designed women to be and then try to say, make women be like men. And then also that was even perverted and distorted. So that was the sleight of hand. And it was done over a couple of centuries, honestly. But so a woman nurtures and cultivates those in her life, has obvious applications to literally bearing a child. Right? Bearing children, raising those children, nursing those children, caring for those children. I mean, man, I see this play out at my house.
A kid falls and busts their knee, and my wife is the sweetest, the sweetest person.
And I'm kind of like, nah, get over it. I think they're all right.
It'll be fine.
My mom, same way. Like, just the other day, our youngest son got his.
His fingers shut in the car door. Not pleasant, by the way. It could have been way worse, but he got it shut in the car door. My mom was near tears, and I'm kind of like, let me take a look at that, son. Feel around on that. Whatever. I'm like, I'll get you an ice pack. You'll be all right. You know, and that is just. Man, it's just in the gearing, right. How women are. So again, the birthing and nurturing of children. But, like, I think that that extends beyond. I think that's where it's primary. Right. But I also think that extends then beyond and then to the husband, too, in their home.
How does that extend then into other areas?
Does that work in other areas? Maybe that was a loaded question.
[00:15:11] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, absolutely.
You know, I think this. You can be a virtuous woman and not be married. You can be a virtuous single woman by choosing to embrace the God given abilities that you have again, to nurture other people spiritually through the church, to invest in other women, to build up the next generation, to teach and to admonish and help again those that God has placed under your care and authority as a woman. And so that's part of that nurturing, cultivating peace. I think there's a way that women can do that in the workplace as well, that women can nurture and cultivate a business in a good, healthy way and those around her in the business in a good and healthy way. Yeah.
[00:15:58] Speaker A: Okay, Ryan, you want to add anything to that or go a different direction off of that?
[00:16:02] Speaker C: Yeah, I think that the teaching of the underlying emphasis in Proverbs 31 is that the virtuous woman is one who is oriented towards the flourishing of others.
Not let me get to where I want to get to the boss way and make people afraid of me because I'm hardened by feminism and toxic masculinity and maybe actually some real hurt there that I'd like to be compassionate to as well.
But if what we're saying, if there's a rise in your heart as a lady watching this, where you can't believe that men are saying you should enjoy and feel at your best when you're caring for people who are not you, then something's wrong. I think it's okay to say that biblically something's wrong if you don't find your service in the kingdom of God in making other people flourish.
And you know, I think again, feminism, with an unfortunate stroke of genius, combined with a lack of good theology by lots of years of Christianity, found that spot to say, well, let's, yeah, let's convince women that the home is actually the center of oppression, not flourishing.
[00:17:21] Speaker A: And it did that too with it begins again. It tried to copy paste masculinity. It distorted it along the way and lay it on top of women as a template. And so it did things like gear all of society around having a young, having a girl targeting a career as her like first principle or as her as that's what will fulfill you. That is your fulfillment as a girl. When you grow into a young woman. The career is the thing, right? And that's like, that doesn't fulfill women. Right. And it's interesting because you see this and what ends up often happening is that they do the boss babe thing or the career thing.
But there is again, we're going back to design. God designed women. He said, be fruitful and multiply And a woman has a really critical role in that. And so you see women becoming unhappy as they've done the career thing. And then again, like, culture sort of has put off childbearing. Put off childbearing, and then it becomes harder to have kids. Like, biologically, you get in your late 30s and 40s, and all of a sudden everything about the way God designed us goes. Yeah, you guys are sort of missing it when it comes to what I'm not saying a woman couldn't go work somewhere. That's not my point. It's not the Bible's point either. No, it's not the Bible's point. Read Proverbs 31. She's really productive. But the point is that the culture said a woman's fulfillment should be in this thing over here. When the Bible never said that. No, that's not what she was designed.
Where she was designed to flourish. And so I want to highlight that because, again, we fleshed that out for quite a while on what that looks like, what it doesn't mean, all that stuff. But I do think that that was a horrib trick that the culture played, that feminism played on women. And like I'm saying, I think it ultimately leaves them miserable. And the ones who, you know, fall into that paradigm. Yeah, yeah, right.
[00:19:18] Speaker B: Well, and I just want to add, too, that, you know, some of the things that are really interesting, you know, the reality is a career won't satisfy a man either.
Again, it's under God's authority. And so you find your. You are made, your hope, your joy, your peace, your satisfaction. Your life is God. It's Christ, Jesus. When Christ who is your life appears. Colossians 3. Right. So that's the commonality that we have the same thing. Men are called to help other people flourish, too. We just do it in different ways that the expressions of it are different, because to forget one or the other is actually incomplete.
For humanity to flourish, there is a way that males need to make that happen and a way that females are called to make that happen under God's design. And I think that's really, really important. And so that leads us to. Then again, I want us to cast a positive vision for not just what a virtuous woman is not, but what a virtuous woman is.
And so Genesis 2:18.
And we can kind of go there and talk about this because I think this is a really profound thing and certainly is a part of the sermon, but the idea of.
In Genesis 2:18, Ryan, you go ahead and turn there and read it. For us. But there's a. In the Hebrew, there's two words, ezer, konegdo. And I'm not saying that exactly right, but pronouncing it anyway. But the ideas of those words are so rich and so much more than just be a little helper.
And so, Ryan, if you will read Genesis 2:18, and then we're going to
[00:21:00] Speaker C: talk through it, then the Lord God said, it is not good that the man should be alone. I will make a helper fit for him.
[00:21:08] Speaker B: Okay, so the helper, the Hebrew is Ezer, fit is connecto. That is the idea. Appropriate, suitable, fitting.
And it's something that contains a lot of dignity. And the idea of ezer is actually really, really important because that word is not just used of women, it's actually used of God at a couple of different points. For instance, like Psalm 33:20, that the Lord is our help and our shield, describing the character of God.
Or, you know, we sing this in our hymns. Here I raise my Ebenezer. Or Ezer is the. Again, the Hebrew word. And so it's.
[00:21:51] Speaker A: You mean that hymn is not about Ebenezer Scrooge?
[00:21:54] Speaker B: It's actually not.
[00:21:55] Speaker C: Okay, so we start singing it here, Raise my Ebenezer.
[00:21:58] Speaker A: That was always, like, literally, probably one of the weirdest verses sing. But. And I always forget what it means, so I have a hard time being like, kids. It's all right. Ebenezer actually means. I can't remember. Glad you explained that. But I love that verse. It is. And it's come thou fount is what it is.
[00:22:12] Speaker B: Come down fount. It's actually incredibly biblical. Here I raise mine Ebenezer. That term Eben is a reference to a stone. And then ezer is help. And so you can hear it. A stone of help. It's a remembrance that. That I think it was in First Samuel, if I recall, that they're called to raise up a monument, essentially, and remind themselves the Lord was our help. And so you can actually hear it in the hymn, Hither bind thine Help. I've come, you are my help, God.
And So when Genesis 2 describes that a woman is a help, it's actually incredibly profound. It is actually incredibly deep. Dignified God is giving man something that he needs. Like, this is not good. I mean, literally, this is not good
[00:23:04] Speaker A: for him to be alone.
[00:23:04] Speaker B: For him to be alone.
Exactly. Without a woman, man is not. Well, yeah.
[00:23:09] Speaker A: Like, God put man to work, and it was clear that man needed someone to do the thing that God set before him. Right. And so, yeah, I think it's important to highlight that. Which is to say that to be the helper is not to be second rate in terms of birth or like, made an image of God. It does mean like the Eve was under Adam's authority.
[00:23:32] Speaker C: Yeah. There's a different authority.
[00:23:34] Speaker B: Yeah, Right.
[00:23:34] Speaker A: Under his authority. But being under authority doesn't mean you have less value.
[00:23:38] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:23:38] Speaker A: I'm under other authority. You know, like we're all under various authorities. It doesn't mean that, like. Well, because that's. Because you're garbage. Right. It's like.
[00:23:45] Speaker B: No.
[00:23:47] Speaker A: And that's the thing I think we were trying to really get at in our authority series was like God built authority into the world.
[00:23:54] Speaker B: Right.
[00:23:54] Speaker A: And there's even authority in the Godhead. Right? Absolutely. Like the Son submits himself to the Father. Is that because the Son is. Jesus is, you know, is kind of worthless or something? Right. No. Right. Jesus submits to the authority of the Father, the Son to the Father. So again, I think it is really key because it's an easily misunderstood point to say that the woman was created under the authority of her husband as his helper. But it doesn't mean that she wasn't made in the image of God. Right, Right. It doesn't mean that she's less valuable. Right. Expendable and he's not. Or something like that doesn't mean that she's a doormat.
That's actually what the culture says.
The Bible says. Because the culture is doing a strawman argument in order to try to slip feminism back in there. The Bible doesn't say those things.
[00:24:44] Speaker C: It's just a good rule of thumb to not allow people who do not have the Holy Spirit in them to interpret a book that the Holy Spirit is required to interpret.
I would just add on to the Ezra Conigdo part there that it's an obvious teaching of Genesis that in marriage, but I think even in just the normal cultivating of life, that we need each other to be at our best reach. It's impossible.
It's impossible for me to be the best man in my marriage without my wife.
[00:25:18] Speaker A: Yeah. Like, raise your hand if your wife has made you a better man. Right. And it's like, y.
Having a wife has made me a better man.
[00:25:24] Speaker C: Exactly. And a better pastor. I mean, there were so many people who said to me, man, like, you've. You. There's a lot that's changed since you got married and still is changing, you know? And I like to think that by God's grace, I've made her a More secure, confident woman. Still quiet, but confident woman.
We need each other. And this is not just in marriage either. Right. Some of the best nurturing and care and cultivating I've received have been from lifelong single women or widows who are no longer married in the church.
[00:25:55] Speaker A: Yeah, that's good.
And we don't have a whole lot of time left, so I actually want to go there for a second. I think. Let's talk about these.
So when we talk prescriptively, we have to talk normatively because that's how the, you know, you have to look at the Bible and go, this is how it was made. But normative conversation. In other words, saying this is what is prescribed in normal, typical situations does not mean there's nothing to be said to people who are, you know, other, like, other cases than that. Right. We'll call it an edge case or whatever. But like, other cases. And those are. They're not cases, they're people. But you know what I mean? So talking to widows, to single women, to women who have never been married, and the things that are true about a virtuous woman apply whether you are a married woman or a not married woman. I mean, frankly, even if you're, you know, just 17 and you're just not married yet, it's like, well, absolutely. Can you not be virtuous? Right. So you have to. These have to extend into women whether they are married or not married. Even though, like, the way we understand, like, God built a family as the first thing he built there. Right. So we understand it that way. Of course, each of those women exist in the context of a family too. Right. So that's all I'm saying. Let's spend just a second talking about some of those instances of a woman who's single, maybe not even. Maybe not always by her own choice. Right. A woman who's a widow.
I actually think, Anna, in the Bible, and was it in Matthew or is it Luke? I'm forgetting which gospel. It's believe it's Luke.
She's a great example of this, of someone who was married briefly seven years or something. She's widowed for like 60 years. I'm gonna get the numbers wrong. And she spends basically that entire time of her. She could have remarried, right. And that would have been.
Fine.
[00:27:51] Speaker C: He asked.
[00:27:51] Speaker A: Fine, fine. Yeah. But I mean, for whatever reason, that's not what God had for her. Right. And that's. I think, actually the point is that God had a very specific purpose ordained for her, and it was for her to pronounce the praises of God as he worked out his kingdom through his Son become incarnate. When Mary and Joseph brought baby Jesus into the temple, Anna had spent the last decades upon decades there. Everybody knew her. Right. And so she was there as a woman who was not married. Right. Not existing within a, like, familial structure. We wouldn't say that Anna is normative, though. Right. And that's the difference. But we would say that she was a virtuous woman.
Of course.
[00:28:33] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:28:34] Speaker A: Okay, so I've said my thing kind of, you know, help me out with that a little bit more.
[00:28:38] Speaker B: But.
[00:28:38] Speaker C: Well, I think that I'm preaching on Titus 2 or. Well, when you hear this, I'll have preached on Titus 2.
And the.
The command there to older women is not to older married women.
It's just older women. Here's what you're to teach to the younger women. In other words, cultivate the biblical tradition of beautiful womanhood. And so it is more, again, that culture of cultivating care. I think for the single ladies, I'm thinking of, I mean, across the spectrum, I'm talking like, of course, young adult single ladies, but even, you know, high school girls, you know, there's a reason that, you know, when you need a babysitter, you're likely going to call the high school girl you trust.
[00:29:26] Speaker A: Yeah.
Not the high school guy he doesn't even want to. Right. That's the reality.
[00:29:30] Speaker C: Like, something.
[00:29:31] Speaker A: Yeah, you're right.
[00:29:32] Speaker C: But generally your mind's going, who's the high school gal that I know and trust?
[00:29:36] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:29:36] Speaker C: I'm going to call her because she's going to come over here and she's going to gently cultivate this evening out so I can go date my wife tonight.
And I think giving those gals that opportunity, I love it, you know, when I see in our young adult ministry and our little babies are being cared for by those young single ladies who are, you know, cult who are practicing the cultivation of being oriented towards others.
And that is not less than that. That is beautiful. And I think we need to give them the chance to do that kingdom work, baby. Absolutely.
[00:30:08] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And that's God again. It's like when you le into God's design, you're the best equipped to do the kingdom work that God calls you to do.
[00:30:16] Speaker B: I think, too, just, you know, as a pastor at Riverview, I mean, we do have many widows in our church.
We have, again, women who've never been married.
And I can say with absolute integrity that I see many of those women, again, investing in other people, nurturing other people in terms of just helping them grow and move towards a godly life, helping them flourish.
That may be children, that may be other women, and sometimes it's me as their pastor. They'll come and they'll encourage me. They'll say something that I need to hear.
Those are the kinds of things, whether you're married or not, that godly women do.
They look around and essentially they're saying this, who needs help today? Who can I invest in?
[00:31:08] Speaker A: And that literally happened to me like this past week.
[00:31:10] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And so, and, and man, when it happens, I mean, it is life giving. It's like I said, it's been deeply encouraging for me as a pastor.
[00:31:18] Speaker C: And just imagine a man calling to make that same offer.
Yeah, it just doesn't feel the same. Yeah, I mean, sometimes it could, but it doesn't feel the same and it shouldn't.
[00:31:27] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I know what you mean. And, and I guess then. And we'll wrap up, but I think then for, for those women, they actually. So they're not under.
Because the last part is under God's authority. Right, right. And all women and men are under God's authority, or they better be, or they should be. And in a marriage, a wife is under her husband's authority.
A woman that, you know, some of these cases, these instances that we've talked about, they're actually, those women are under the spiritual authority of the pastors in the church. Again, we spent quite a few episodes talking about what that is, why God ordained that. That way. If you didn't catch those. Go back. We would encourage you to go back and listen to those episodes about trying to flesh out a theology of, and a practice of how God instituted authority and why. And again, that was actually meant to set the stage for a lot of these kinds of conversations. So those, those women, as well as the men and women in our church are under pastoral authority, which again, we talk about God instituted men as pastors of churches. Right. And they're under ultimately the same authority that those pastors are under, which is God's authority. So I think that understanding that and understanding how that works is really key because it helps to. I think it's important for us to diffuse some of the landmines that feminism has placed along this path. Right. Because you want to walk down this conversational path and you get to a landmine and it blows your leg off, you know, and it derails the whole thing because you get. I don't like the word triggered, but you know what I mean? You get sort of like, you hear something, and it makes you go, mm, I don't know about that. And it's like, that actually is, if we're lined up with God's word, then what happened there was the culture dropped a little secret, a little secret poison in there along the way. And so I think it's important for us to then try to diffuse those by acknowledging God's authority, God's design, and go, hey, go look at what God's word says about these things. Right? Yeah.
[00:33:27] Speaker B: And I would just say, you know, as a part of that, we all, every one of us, are shaped by our experiences in really profound ways. And we like to see ourselves as these very, like, I'm rational and unbiased, and I'm a good arbiter of the truth.
The reality is, I mean, if you believe the Bible, Jeremiah 17 tells you you're not okay. The heart is deceitful above all else. And so when you feel these visceral reactions to some of the things that are being discussed, I would encourage and plead with women to evaluate, why is that? Like, why do certain things in the Bible cause my heart to respond a certain way? It might be. And if this has happened to you, I am sorry.
And it's a real thing.
We live in a fallen world, and there are bad men in the world.
There are men who have purposefully taken advantage of women. There are men who have purposefully exploited people who are weaker than them.
And so that's a real thing that we're wrestling against, even as we try to hold out the biblical way.
Some of those experiences are real, and we don't want to belittle those or discount those.
And yet, at the same time, we want to hold God's truth up and say, hey, if that happened to you, that actually was not necessarily an indicator that the culture's right. It's an indicator that the world has fallen, sin is real, and that man was wrong. And so now let's reorient and think about what's God's good design.
And I think that's a really important piece to add to the conversation.
[00:35:18] Speaker C: Hear, hear. Amen.
[00:35:19] Speaker A: Yeah, good.
Yeah, I agree with that. And let's maybe put a pin in this and continue. I just want to issue my apology for dropping my landmine analogy in the women's episode, and I should have saved that for the men's episode.
[00:35:33] Speaker B: There's plenty of land mines there, too.
[00:35:34] Speaker A: There are a lot of landmines. So.
But we're going to continue what virtuous womanhood looks like.
And then some of the cultural factors we'll get into later as well that we think that have really poisoned the well on this conversation. For now, we hope that this has been encouraging to you. We would always point you to God's word as you seek these things out and further up and further in. And we'll see you soon.
[00:36:20] Speaker C: Sam.
Jesus.
Sa.
