Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:16] Speaker B: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the Word and Flesh podcast from Riverview Baptist Church. For Riverview Baptist Church, I'm Nathan Bechtold, one of the elders at Riverview and joined again today by a couple of our other elders, Michael Bean and Ryan Anderson. Good to be with you for. Hey, fellas.
[00:00:30] Speaker C: Yep. Good to be back.
[00:00:30] Speaker B: Yep. And today we are continuing our conversation about authority, which is a ticklish topic. Yeah, ticklish is the word you were looking for, by the way, specifically. And we talked about this a little bit in our first couple of episodes, but we want to dive in a little more today about the role and authority of the church in a Christian's life. And this one is. This one is really, really ticklish. I'm gonna use that word as many times as I can until you made me stop. By the way, this episode, the Role and Author Church in a Christian's Life. Now, again, we live in America in 2026, and the question about church authority is one that I think most folks want to be able to define for themselves, maybe jettison it completely because, you know, authority has been abused at various points there. You definitely see. Again, we talked about this at the last episode. You definitely see this kind of countercurrent of some people that are actually embracing authority in the church again, because I think the cultural wasteland that has been created from abandoning authority and so many good things. Right. You actually see some people actually running back towards structure and authority and going, maybe we shouldn't have completely thrown that out. Right. But it is a really critical question is, what is the role and authority of the church in a Christian's life? So I'll just pose this one and you guys can each help us answer it. Where does pastoral authority come from? And maybe even back up and just go ahead and define what are the authorities in church life? Like, what are those authorities? And, like, where does that come from?
And why should folks regard the authorities in their local church more highly as more important in their lives than, again, the authority that they may be tempted to on purpose or accidentally give to another podcaster or another, you know, some famous public speaker, pastor, teacher, whoever. Even a good one, even one that's, like, really godly, biblical, teaches God's word, says true things. So that was just one question, wrapped up as about 12.
[00:02:45] Speaker C: So, yeah, so we'll just start again, I think, just connecting back to our previous episode.
Every authority comes from God. There is no authority that exists outside of him.
And so then clearly, pastoral authority comes from God, and that is explicit in the scriptures. And so we see that, like Ephesians, chapter four, that he gave shepherds and teachers to equip the saints for the work of the ministry.
Or Hebrews 13:17, Obey your leaders, for they are keeping watch over your souls.
[00:03:17] Speaker B: That one uses the O word right there.
[00:03:18] Speaker C: That's right. That's an intense passage. But then the back half is just as important as those who will give an account. And so there is, again, there's an authority that a pastor has, but he's going to answer to the ultimate authority for the way that he shepherded and led. Excuse me. And so first Peter five, two, three, again, shepherd the flock of God, not domineering, but being examples.
And so we're called as pastors and given a certain level of authority, but it is an authority to shepherd, to lead, to teach, and only to do so in accordance with the word of God. Wherever a pastor would go beyond that, they've outstretched their authority.
[00:04:01] Speaker B: Those are good. So actually work through those three. Cause I think each of those three verses you just gave get at one or two things in each one that is distinct and really critical. So the first one was he gave shepherds and teachers to equip the saints. Shepherds, obviously, like a sheep flock kind of word there. We often refer to pastors, pastors as shepherds.
So that one talks about specifically, he gave them for what purpose? To equip the saints. Right. So they're for your good. They're like for your equipping as a saint.
[00:04:35] Speaker C: Yep, absolutely. Same thing.
You know, Hebrews 13:17, there is a soul care that a pastor should give.
And so, you know, a pastor's not just meant to be your buddy.
He's not meant to stand up on a stage, maybe around a coffee table, and just share some thoughts and good stories.
He is meant to deliver the truth of God's word to you for the good of your soul. And then lastly, again, shepherding the flock. Peter picks up on that same image, but he adds as an example. And so a pastor is meant to live among you as an example of how to follow Christ.
[00:05:14] Speaker B: Well, so why does it say in Hebrews 13:17, though, obey your leaders? Because it could just say, give them an annual appreciation gift because they're keeping watch over your souls and will give an account. Right. Like that is a strong phrasing for Paul, the writer of Hebrews to use there. Right? Obey your leaders, for they are keeping watch over your souls and will give an account.
[00:05:41] Speaker C: Yeah, go ahead, Ryan.
[00:05:42] Speaker A: I would just encourage those who are reading that verse to consider what we said, I don't know which episode it was earlier, but that a good and beautiful life is downstream from submitting your life or obeying unto your life to good godly authority. People read that verse and they get stuck on the ask or the command there in Hebrews to submit or to obey.
They get stuck there without realizing, well, if I do that, I'm going to have a pastor who has delegated authority by God to care for my soul and will thus be held in account.
And so I think the admonition there from the author of Hebrews, the reason it's so strong is likely because he knows that if you don't get this right, your life will be chaotic.
[00:06:33] Speaker B: Do you think that people have always struggled to the level that I think we do? This is a loaded question in America now, too, with that instinctual reaction to kind of like balk whenever you say submit to or obey your authorities. Do you think that that's always been a challenge? Do you think we uniquely struggle with that?
[00:06:54] Speaker A: Well, I think the eternal problem is after the fall, the problem is I want to be in charge of my own life.
[00:06:59] Speaker B: Sure, yeah, that's true.
[00:07:00] Speaker A: The intangibles have always been there. I do think there are certain parts about culture now that exacerbate that because of things like a mistrust of government, like feminism.
Like, honestly, one thing that really hurt, I think the understanding of pastoral authority and church authority is the growth of the megachurch, the growth of the seeker sensitive, very friendly model, because that person may be able to preach truth and may even be qualified to be a pastor. But a shepherd implies that you're in the pasture with a sheep, not behind a stage in an office that's not on the campus of your church building. Whatever the case, I think those kinds of things have exacerbated that divide, because guess what?
Pastor Michael speaks into my life and says, hey, Ryan, you got a sin issue, and I smell it. You need to deal with it. Well, I can go to whatever church I want. That pastor, I don't have to have a relationship with him. He doesn't have to know me enough to speak into my life. I can go somewhere where there is no church membership, there is no authority.
[00:08:01] Speaker B: Right. Where you can hide. Basically, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:08:05] Speaker C: And to get back to your question about why the word obey the back half of the verse, we didn't quote it earlier, but it says something really interesting. So obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls as those who will give an account that's the part we quoted. Here's the rest of the verse. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.
And the Apostle Paul actually says to the Corinthian church that we are workers with you for your joy.
That if the pastor is faithful, then his ultimate goal for you is not a prudish, boring, performance driven Christian life.
It is joy in Jesus, which is the greatest joy that you're ever going to know. And so that is why it's worth obeying. That's why he's worth listening to. If he's faithful, that's where hopefully he's going to be directing you. Is the deepest level of joy imaginable in Jesus Christ.
[00:09:02] Speaker B: I think that is instinctual. Yeah, I think that's good. And that whatever the instinctual hesitation is, again, it kind of gets baked into us because of the time that we live in. I think that when we encounter these verses that are so clear about that, you can't, you don't have the option of just being like, well, I'm just not going to read that anymore.
[00:09:21] Speaker A: Right, like, or, oh, that was mistranslated, right.
[00:09:24] Speaker B: Or whatever. You have to reckon with that. And I think the way you reckon with it is letting faith shape your action in spite of the fact that maybe you go, man, like the, the that hesitation, that's, that's at least temptation if not sinful. Right. Like, that desire to, to kick against that is actually not good. And so you have to let faith actually go. Okay, okay, I'm gonna. Anyways, I'm going to submit to the authorities that God has put in my life because I trust that again, keeping watch over your souls, they will give an account. And this is for my joy. Right. This is for my good.
And I think faith is the like, trusting that God said that and that God knows what he's doing is the thing that has to help. I think a lot of folks go, man, that is not instinctively what I would do. Whereas what I was getting at is I think in times past maybe there was a little more just kind of baked into life a lot of authority structures and a lot of recognition that that's just the way it is, that that's good and that it's fine, and within church and all of that, and there was less like fierce individualism and things like that. That made you kind of go, you know, oh, I don't know about that, do my own way. Right, right. And so I think that faith helps kind of get across that barrier that individualism and the modern mindset has created for us. That's my thought.
[00:10:49] Speaker C: No, it is admittedly an act of faith. I mean, it is trusting that God's design in the church is good and will actually work. I mean, that's. And I think that's hard for us as. As Americans in the current culture because we have so many examples where it hasn't worked well.
And so we have to be honest about that. And again, I will say this blatantly, a faithful pastor is not infallible.
[00:11:18] Speaker B: But are you saying that pastors are sinners? I just want to hear you say, that's exactly. Okay.
[00:11:22] Speaker C: Your pastor is a sinner indeed. If you hang out with me long enough, you will see that. Yeah. The reality is a faithful pastor is not infallible. And so search the scriptures. Do spend time thinking carefully about what he presents to you and how he presents and why he's presenting it. But if it matches the scriptures, follow, trust. That's the reality.
[00:11:43] Speaker A: Yeah. I want to make another comment on the Hebrews 13 passage there.
I think the author of Hebrews intuitively understands that we're all submitted somewhere. And so if we're all submitted somewhere, why don't we submit to the people who actually love us? Not through the podcast talking head who invites you into the echo chamber of your own already preconceived algorithmic thoughts. You're already submitted somewhere. Why don't you submit to someone who, when he puts his head on the pillow at night, he's weeping over your sin for you. He's praying that you would arrive at spiritual maturity and live in spiritual discipline. He's seeking out the Scriptures for his own personal relationship with the Father, but also because he wants you to experience God. If you're going to submit to someone, why wouldn't you submit to that person? Why wouldn't you submit to that group of pastors? Actually more that's better than just one, because you're submitted somewhere.
[00:12:35] Speaker C: Yeah. And I would add to that. I do think this becomes more dangerous in a church where there's not a plurality of elders.
[00:12:43] Speaker A: Amen.
[00:12:43] Speaker B: Good. Agreed.
[00:12:44] Speaker C: Yeah. And so when you have a single man with very little accountability saying, follow me, do it my way, by definition, he may not already be doing it God's way to some degree, because there is no model of a church without a plurality of elders in the New Testament. I think that's a very big problem in many American churches.
And so at Riverview, by God's grace, we have established that.
Myself, Ryan, you We are all accountable to many more men than just us. There are seven active men serving as elders at Riverview Baptist Church. And so those men have the right to ask us anything, to hold us accountable. And then ultimately, yeah, we are accountable to the body of believers. The church can remove us should we violate the scriptures.
[00:13:33] Speaker B: Okay, so I want to get to that for a second because that's interesting, right? Because we're talking about authority. We're talking about where authority comes from. Talking about authority in the church and where it comes from.
And initially that could actually make it sound like those are across one another. Like, because a congregation. The way our model works, right, is that a congregation approves an elder to be ordained and installed as an elder there at Riverview, and then that elder has a spiritual authority over those people. Again, we didn't even. Didn't focus a lot on 1 Peter 5, 2 and 3, but to shepherd them, not domineering, but being an example. So that's critical.
[00:14:14] Speaker A: Right?
[00:14:15] Speaker B: And that elder has to bear that in mind. But then also that congregation has, I guess you would call it the authority, right, to remove that elder if, like, that person goes in rebellion against the Lord and is unrepentant in sin or whatever.
So where does the authority come from? Is it from the congregation? Is it from the elder? How does that work?
[00:14:36] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a great question. And I don't want us to go too far down this rabbit hole, but at least in this episode, the Cliff Notes that I would say, again, the ultimate author, Word of God. And the Word actually demonstrates in the New Testament that it seems that the congregation is entrusted with the authority to appoint its own leaders. Why? Because the Holy Spirit dwells in the
[00:14:59] Speaker B: people of God individually and corporately. Correct. We each have the Holy Spirit, and then as a body of believers, God works among us in a special way.
[00:15:10] Speaker C: Correct.
[00:15:10] Speaker B: And then this is again where we get the concept of, like the priesthood of the believer. Right? Right.
[00:15:14] Speaker C: And so at Riverview, what we have is elder led congregationalism. There is an accountability that the elders have, but generally the congregation is meant to follow the leading teaching and shepherding of the elders under the authority of the Word of God. Once they step out of that, then the congregation actually has the ultimate authority to again, remove or address whatever the issue may be.
And so I actually believe it's much like the biblical tension in a marriage.
The husband is to lead the home and the wife is to submit to the husband. And yet the husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church sacrificially self denyingly in a radical way. There's a tension there, if we're honest about that. It's not always super easy.
In the same way, I think that the church is modeled so that elders lead, but they are to lead with a self denying kind of love that elevates the congregation.
[00:16:18] Speaker B: I just want to, for the record, say that you used the word wince. They step out of that. Which was a very. That was very profound.
[00:16:25] Speaker C: I did that for you.
[00:16:26] Speaker B: Whence they step out of that for you? It was a very ticklish word choice right there. I'm sorry. That was good. That was good. Okay, Ryan, you want to add something to that?
[00:16:34] Speaker A: I think his thoughts are sufficient.
[00:16:35] Speaker B: Okay, good. Well, that wraps up this. No, just kidding.
Okay, so with the few minutes that we have left, and then we'll wrap up.
What does it look like then, to be committed to a local tradition? Man, we could do like another hour on this, right? But we will not. What does it look like?
You know, just real brief. Let's hit these. To be committed to a local church because you're submitting to the elders, to the authority, spiritual authority in that church.
But why should you commit? Why not just stay home and worship, right? Skip on Sundays. You're not skipping. You're doing your family at home.
Why be committed to a local church? And then what does that commitment look like? Or what should it look like?
[00:17:20] Speaker C: Kick us off, ryan,
[00:17:24] Speaker B: you have 30 seconds. Go.
[00:17:25] Speaker A: I'm just kidding. I can't do it in 30 seconds. But I think we just have to be honest with the reason we're asking the question.
Michael and I spent a lot of time lamenting and praying about the baseline understanding of the church and the American life today, which is an add on, not a reordering of life.
[00:17:45] Speaker B: An accessory.
[00:17:46] Speaker A: An accessory not essential to my spiritual life and vitality and maturity.
That's the reason we're asking the question, because it is an issue.
What does it look like to be committed to the local church? Well.
And why shouldn't I go to church online? I shouldn't even call it church online because it's not that.
[00:18:04] Speaker B: Listen to a sermon in your.
[00:18:06] Speaker A: Right. It's not church. Just be clear about that one. Because I think the teaching of the New Testament as it relates to the gathering of the church, the participation in the ordinances, Lord's Supper and baptism, those are visible expressions of indivisible realities of the character of God or the bride of Christ.
And so by definition, they have to be seen by more than just you. Which is why you don't baptize your wife in the bathtub or you don't eat a cracker in your bedroom and call it communion. Because these are visible communal expressions of godliness. So we have to do them together. I needed to say that. But I also. I do think that at the very basic level, what does it look like to be committed to the church? It means I'm there.
[00:18:53] Speaker B: Yeah, Novel idea.
[00:18:55] Speaker C: Yeah. I would just add to that. I mean, again, the Greek word that we tend to generally see used in the New Testament is the word ecclesia. And that word is literally a formal gathering. It was often used in context outside of the church, where it was a gathering of the city town. And it was essentially like a town hall that we're getting the citizens together to make decisions about what we're going to. To do next.
[00:19:21] Speaker B: Yeah, it's being together.
[00:19:22] Speaker C: Exactly. And so by definition, it is gathering. So to not gather is to not faithfully participate in the life of the local church.
[00:19:31] Speaker B: Gather in the body.
[00:19:33] Speaker C: Correct.
[00:19:33] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:19:33] Speaker A: I can be a Christian, but I don't have to go to church.
[00:19:35] Speaker C: Right, yeah. That's fundamentally self.
[00:19:40] Speaker A: I'm the authority.
[00:19:41] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. So we're back to that whole issue. So, yeah, it's fundamentally self defeating to say, I'm a Christian, I don't have to have the church.
Again, search the Scriptures.
[00:19:51] Speaker A: I'm a Christian, but I don't have to have the church, even though Jesus died for her.
[00:19:54] Speaker C: Correct. So Hebrews 10:24. Not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some.
Very clear. That's what we're called to do is gather. So that's number one. But I think number two, again, what brings us together when we do gather is Christ through the Word, through the sacraments, through the worship and singing of biblical truth. And so it is submitting to biblical teaching, submitting your life week in and week out, that this is a priority for us as a family, for me as an individual. I'm going to set this time aside to gather with the people of God and hear and receive the word of God together. And so it is submitting to biblical teaching. I think there's four or five others.
The next one, I think is absolutely critical.
Living in meaningful relationships. It is not okay to come to church, disappear in the crowd and go home again. It's very easy to do. Even at Riverview, that happens, and I lament that. But God calls us as his people. The New Testament is filled with, I don't remember how many different One anothers off the top of my head. Love one another, pray for one another, serve one another, actually correct one another, teach one another.
You cannot do those things by simply coming, attending a worship service and going home.
[00:21:17] Speaker B: And while I think the sort of the ritual of the worship service is a good thing because those things run worship through the grooves of our hearts and minds. Right. And run the word through those things, I think what you just said actually helps answer the other side of that, which is it's not just the go do the ritual. You know, there's actually.
Yeah. The one and others. Right. The being together that we are the body.
[00:21:42] Speaker A: Yeah. The New Testament church is God's gift to us to live out the one another's.
If you read the rest of Hebrews 10 that we've talked about, what does it say to spur one another on to love and good works? In other words, one, if I'm not there, by definition someone is not being spurred on to love and good works in my absence.
That's cosmic. That's different than just, that's okay, I don't have to be there. But also when I'm there as an overflow of how I experience God through his word and the worship of truth, I then use the giftings he's given me to love and equip and serve his body. I don't come to get. I do come to receive from God,
[00:22:23] Speaker B: but then I give to his people. Yeah. Because you exist within the body. Yeah. Like you're part of it.
[00:22:30] Speaker C: And this is hard for us as a hyper individualistic American culture. But essentially what we're saying is a well rounded Christian will both acknowledge a level of gifting that they can bring to the church and a legitimate need that I need these people in my life. They are a gift from God.
Not in the same level as my wife or children, but in some level. These are whom God. These are the people God has given me at this season and this point in history to shape me, to mold me, to make me. That is again, I think lost on a lot of us when we think about church.
[00:23:14] Speaker B: Man. There's so many, so many. I want to go like so many directions with that right now. And we want to limit our episode length to not three hours, but we could totally do it because I think that touches on cultural issues of like being unrooted like we've talked about and just transience and church hopping. And again, it doesn't mean that you should never ever leave a church. That's a whole nother conversation. That's a different episode. Yeah, but yeah, like being with a group of people and being known by them and knowing them and knowing how you can pray for them and them knowing how they can pray for you. Actually, actually, not just. I mean, it's good to pray for. Like we're traveling this weekend. But you know, like beyond that.
[00:23:54] Speaker A: Let's move past that.
[00:23:54] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, let's do that and other. Yeah, right. And. And so ye like that. I'm just saying, like, that there's a rootedness with a group of people that comes only through longevity.
[00:24:05] Speaker C: Correct.
[00:24:06] Speaker B: Only through longevity. Right. And so being there and being there and having been there for months, but that's not enough really. And then years and that starts to be enough. And then like there's something that can't be. There's no cheat code for that. Right. So anyways, another conversation.
[00:24:22] Speaker C: That's another conversation.
[00:24:23] Speaker B: You wrap it up with a final thought here.
[00:24:25] Speaker A: Yeah, I would just add to Michael's thought. The New Testament word for a fellow believer in the Lord Jesus is brother and sister. That's not a metaphor, that's real. God has united us by his blood and we ought to joyfully gather as we participate together as a foretaste of the eternal gathering where blood bought believers gather and worship the Lord in eternal splendor. And we get a foretaste of that every time we gather on Sunday morning.
I don't want to miss that.
[00:24:56] Speaker B: It's hard to think of that whenever, you know, chaos of Sunday morning.
[00:24:59] Speaker C: Children are crying and screaming.
[00:25:01] Speaker B: But you're right, you're right to point us to that because that's the right perspective. Good. A lot more to be said. A lot more will be said, but just in future episodes. So thanks everyone again for tuning in. We hope this has been encouraging. Again, if you have thoughts, questions even about what we've talked about, you know, come holler at us. And maybe not holler, but, you know, ask.
[00:25:21] Speaker A: Talk.
[00:25:21] Speaker B: Maybe holler, but come ask or come suggest some things that you'd love to hear us jump into, dive into for this. For now, this has been our episode of Word and Flesh. Thanks for tuning in further up and further in. We'll see you next time.
[00:25:53] Speaker A: Sa.
Jesus me.
