Episode Transcript
[00:00:16] Speaker A: It's the question that drives fear into the heart of every parent, daddy or mommy. Where do babies come from?
It probably shouldn't drive fear actually into our hearts, but it's one of these questions that, you know is super important, and you know that the way you answer it is really important, and you kind of feel like you probably only get one shot, and you don't want to screw it up and you don't want to say too much too soon.
So it's timing, it's accuracy, it's, you know, being vague when appropriate, all these things. And we live in a culture that. That makes it even harder because it's pushing these questions in front of our children sooner and sooner. So in a culture that's confused and conflicted about what sex is, frankly, about what human life even is, and about where babies actually do come from, which is a crazy thing to say.
The reality is somebody is going to disciple our children. Somebody is going to answer these questions for our children.
So as Christians, it's our duty, our opportunity, our responsibility to get out in front of that, to lead the conversation and to point our children to exactly what God says about these matters. Welcome to Word and Flesh, a podcast for Slash from Riverview Baptist Church. That was easier.
We're glad that you've joined us on this topic. That is a good one today.
And with us is Elder Michael Bean.
[00:01:47] Speaker B: Glad to be here.
[00:01:48] Speaker A: Glad you're here. And Elder Ryan Anderson.
[00:01:51] Speaker C: Let's do it.
[00:01:52] Speaker A: Also glad you're here.
So this is an issue that I think maybe we should all just be willing to acknowledge that we're probably not going to do this perfectly, even as parents.
And, like, probably almost nobody's parents really get this just nailed.
It's difficult.
And so a lot of people come from varying backgrounds, some of whom parents didn't have this conversation with them ever at all. So they didn't see it modeled. Others who had it, and it was a little bit awkward and kind of stumbled and fumbled through it, but, hey, at least they tried. Others, maybe, who just handed the kid a book and were like, let me know if you have any questions. Right? I mean, I think it's the whole gamut, right? Like, of potential experiences and as parents or even as grandparents.
Again, not that grandparents are the ones that are initiating these conversations, but just like, as family cultures, that thinking, okay, how are we shaping children's understanding of God's design for sex?
We can say gender. I really have to say gender. I mean, Ryan hates that word for good cause.
[00:03:04] Speaker C: It's a Social construct.
[00:03:05] Speaker A: It's a social construct.
But so like, how are we informing and teaching and discipling our children on these issues so that we.
Not just we. So that God's word wins and the culture doesn't win our children's hearts and minds on this issue? I think that every parent deeply cares about that. Every parent who cares about their kids cares about their kids understanding this issue. Well, it's the. Where the rubber meets the road that is the trouble. Because again, like we were saying, it's either been modeled, it was modeled poorly for them or not at all. Or. Or they're like, that's awkward. I don't know how to talk about that. Or what age is appropriate for what or. Well, I was gonna introduce this topic at this age, but then the kid came home and asked me about it. Right. Or whatever. So where the rubber meets the road is really where the good stuff is, I think on this and I don't know, like, initial thoughts on how to start this conversation with a kid. A conversation about sex, conversation about God's design, male and female, all these things we've been talking about. How do you start this with a kid or when should you start it?
[00:04:16] Speaker B: Yeah, I think a couple things. Number one, I would say the way that in my mind this starts in a healthy pattern is you start incredibly early and you start where the Bible starts, which is actually a positive vision for what gender is, what sexuality is.
Essentially the story of creation, the that God makes us male and female, that it is good for boys to be boys, it is good for girls to be girls.
And to begin at that point very early on in life and then to talk about marriage as a gift from God, children are a blessing from the Lord to start framing up really just a biblical ethic for manhood, womanhood, and then eventually as the child ages, sexuality as well.
[00:05:10] Speaker A: Yeah. And so I think those are things that are baked in more to ongoing interactions than they are to like, okay, four year old child, we're gonna sit down and do a 20 minute lecture on how God's design is good. I think it's more baked into the natural questions that kids ask at bath time. Right.
And having a perspective like us as parents having a perspective that God's design is good.
And then the responses to questions and all the things that kids like, you know, kids have no filters. Right. Which is great on this topic.
Our responses come out of us rightly understanding God's design.
And then I think that's where that kind of happens more again than kind of Going now, let's sit down and we're going to talk about how God invented marriage, or you know what I mean, it's more just kind of naturally showing that marriage is good because you show that you love your spouse. Right. And talking about how God designed you this way, if they ask a question about that. Right. And even I think teaching modesty and privacy at an early age, not in like a heavy shame based like, no, don't, but more like, hey, we wrap a towel around us when we get out of the bath for a little while. I think those things actually begin to teach that God made something really precious. God designed us in a really special way. And that actually reveres that design.
[00:06:44] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I would agree with that. I think the other thing I was going to say is just in my mind, it's hard for us and to some degree you can't avoid it, but you want to be proactive rather than reactive. And so I think the mentality that a lot of parents have is, hey, I've got to time up the talk perfectly at the right age developmentally and all these things.
And where I was kind of going in terms of the biblical foundation is really aim for 500 little talks, more so than one big talk.
And I think that is really the better way, just as a foundation, just to be framing and casting that vision again for biblical sexuality, biblical manhood, biblical womanhood, 500 times over.
And then I think it's more natural to have that bigger conversation when the time comes.
[00:07:41] Speaker A: Right. And let me just clarify that.
You know, I'm not saying that you have to chastise your 2 year old when they run out of the bathroom after bath time naked onto the front porch, because that's just hilarious and we all know it. But, you know, teaching things like modesty and propriety at the right time and that those things are good and beautiful is mainly what I meant there. Okay.
[00:08:01] Speaker C: Ryan, I think it's important to recognize where we are as a society.
The reality is people want sinister, dark voices, want to be the voice for our children on this matter.
And they don't care how early that is.
[00:08:20] Speaker A: That's true.
I mean, it's in all the cartoons.
[00:08:23] Speaker C: It's in all the cartoons. I recently read a study about human development that it used to be kind of the understood age for young ladies and young men transitioning into puberty was generally always understood as, you know, the junior high years, 12 to 14.
And some folks in the human development world are growing more and more concerned that that age keeps getting younger and younger.
And they're trying to figure out why.
Well, I think a good theory for that is while they're seeing and consuming more sexual images than any child ever has, generally in the span of human history, so their mind is being engaged in a certain way, and thus their body is being engaged in a certain way from a very young age. And so I say that because I want to free Christians from this mentality of like, well, it's too early.
Well, I guess they're too. Maybe it's a little early for the talk, but 500 mini talks. Totally agree with.
But in general, we want to beat the world to this conversation, which I think is entirely what we're saying. Start earlier than we think. Not in fear. We're not having it because we're fearful of development happening earlier. We're having it because we as Christians believe that God's design is best and his ways are higher. And we want our kids to know that Jesus is better and that his way of doing things is good.
And so we do need to beat the world as best we can. We're not always going to do that because they are aggressive.
[00:09:54] Speaker A: Right. And, you know, you can't script your child's entire life.
And so, like, sometimes stuff just something happens, or they see something, or somebody says something that they heard, and they go ask you a question. And it's good that they ask you that question, and then you go, okay, let's go. Here's where we're talking about it. And you just roll with it.
[00:10:13] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's important. I think a lot of parents do feel this tension of wanting to preserve the innocence of their child for a season. And so how long can I put that conversation off? I know even as a dad, I've felt that.
But I think that, again, being realistic about where the culture is matters deeply. I'll never forget it's been a few years ago, but There was a YouTube video, and it was a choir of men that were living different lifestyles, sexually alternative lifestyles. And they sang the song we're coming for your children.
And it was meant to be, like, sarcastic and Christians are afraid.
But the reality is, I really do believe there was truth in the song, which is, we are coming to indoctrinate.
[00:11:04] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[00:11:05] Speaker B: And so I think as Christian parents, we don't need to be afraid.
I don't think we need to be, again, reactive. We just simply need to be proactive and say, hey, God's way really is better. And again, casting a positive vision for gender and sexuality to Me, that is the foundation.
And you really can't start that too early.
[00:11:29] Speaker A: No. And I think saying just again, to me in the way that we've done this is just try to just positively talk about marriage and those kinds of things to my children. Be like, I don't know, sometimes I just. Because I'm goofy and I talk to my kids in a goofy way, but, you know, just saying it in fun ways about, you know, God made men and women to, you know, be married and have a family and just sort of bring it up in the midst of this context that we're talking about family or whatever else. And so just being willing to just kind of sprinkle that into conversations in a way that's not forced, but is positive. And about God's design.
[00:12:07] Speaker B: Absolutely. And the fact that God makes boys and girls legitimately different. And we're not going to apologize for that as we talk about this to our kids, that, hey, you are, son, different than your sister, or vice versa. And here's some of the ways those things are real.
Absolutely appropriate.
[00:12:25] Speaker C: Yeah. I'll just add here again, to just point where our culture is.
It's never been true that the forces of evil are morally neutral.
They are negatively casting a vision against God's design of sexuality. And so the positive side for Christians is incredibly important.
I'll also just say that it doesn't mean that we become Luddites and we just remove ourselves from any kind of consuming entertainment or engaging with the real world. It just means that we have conversations about it.
So as a family, you watch a movie, and I've heard many Christians talk about this.
Pastor Ryan, we did not know that scene was in there, and we were very surprised. This is a Disney movie, Right? But Disney has very happily decided to try to indoctrinate our kids.
That doesn't mean never watch Disney movies. That just means if you're going to watch it, wisely, read some reviews. And at the end of it, if there's something in there that is against God's design, we say, hey, guys, what did you think about that?
[00:13:37] Speaker A: I love that. Because you're like, you know, you kind of get to, like, get the last word over Disney. I mean, if that comes up, then you beat them at their own stupid game and go, wow, did you see what they put in that movie? Let's talk about that for a sec. And then you be conversational. And also, if that's the first time that you've ever, ever talked about anything like that in years and Your kid is 8 9, 10, 11, 12 years old.
That's gonna feel awkward. And it's like the way you keep that from feeling awkward is just for those conversations generally to be a possibility that you have every once in a while. So we talked about beginning with God's design not just being prohibitive and being, you know. No, no, no, no.
Not that noes are bad.
[00:14:28] Speaker B: No, there's a place for that.
[00:14:28] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, God's law has no's and thou shalt not. Right.
But also then it's like, well, then what shalt thou.
[00:14:38] Speaker B: Right?
[00:14:39] Speaker A: Like, what's good? What does God say is good? Helping them catch a vision for that and not just the prohibitive.
[00:14:48] Speaker C: I think the reason that this conversation is so important is because it is fundamentally a question of identity nowadays.
Fascinating enough, it didn't really used to be. Right.
[00:15:02] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:15:02] Speaker C: But nowadays it is a question of identity, which is. Well, I identify as I'm defined as. And the culture knows that if they win that identity question, in the youngest hearts and minds, they generally win. It's hard to recover that.
[00:15:16] Speaker A: Yeah. That's why they changed the narrative to be about identity.
[00:15:18] Speaker C: Right.
[00:15:19] Speaker A: That's why they changed about that.
[00:15:20] Speaker C: And so we have to, in this conversation, tell our children, God made you.
God has given you guardrails and joys and all these things to experience.
Do it his way and define yourself according to Him. And that's the beautiful and best way.
[00:15:39] Speaker B: Yeah. I think that a lot of children early on, in their early developmental years, they're constantly asking, who am I and who is God?
If we can get that answer right from a biblical perspective. Okay, here's who God is.
He's holy. He's the creator. He is a good and loving father. He is the one who knows how your body was designed. And so let him tell you who you are. You're made in his image. You are precious in his sight. You are all of these things.
That's where your value is. Not in your performance, not in your sexuality, not in all these other things. Again, those conversations can start and should start very early in life.
[00:16:25] Speaker C: Yeah. And it has to be a holistic approach, which is honestly all of what we're getting at.
[00:16:29] Speaker B: Right, Right.
[00:16:30] Speaker C: We're developing a whole person here, not just someone who says, well, don't get your girlfriend pregnant in high school.
[00:16:36] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:37] Speaker C: Right, Right.
[00:16:37] Speaker A: And I think that actually relieves. I think that should take some pressure off parents because you don't have to sort of be freaking out about, like, what am I going to say about the sex conversation. It's like, no, think just bigger picture about what you're going to say about who God is and how it's beautiful and we are blessed when we submit to God's design in all things.
And when we submit ourselves to God's law and God's way, in every area of life, we experience blessing. Have you experienced that, child? When have you experienced that obedience brings blessing? Have you experienced that going against God's way brings conflict in our life? You know what I mean? That doesn't even have to be couched in a sex talk. It's just. That's just how life is. And so I actually think that that relieves some pressure on parents to go, this is how we talk about everything. Yeah, Talk about everything in terms of God's design and how it's good.
[00:17:28] Speaker B: I think that. And I think the other thing that is really important that's very closely related is a theology of sin. And you're not going to tell your child, hey, let's sit down and have a conversation about a theology of sin. But I do think. I mean, from.
[00:17:41] Speaker C: Again, I would try it.
[00:17:42] Speaker A: I knew you. Yeah, you would.
[00:17:44] Speaker C: I'm just kidding. Go ahead.
[00:17:46] Speaker B: From a very early age, even with my children, I have tried to distinguish between people that know Jesus and live a certain way and people that don't know Jesus and don't live that way. And we don't expect them to. There's a reality, too.
If we follow Jesus, we're going to do what he says.
And so, again, that's going to define a lot of how we live, what we say no to, what we say yes to, and where our identity comes from.
And so I think a theology of sin and helping our children understand as a family, you know, classic me and my house. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. And so this is the way we're going to live, kids. We are going to do certain things and we're going to avoid certain things. We're going to, you know, enjoy certain entertainment. We're going to avoid certain forms of entertainment for the glory of God.
[00:18:37] Speaker A: Yeah, I think too, not being. Not shying away from giving a reasonably clear explanation on those kinds of boundaries and on the things that we've said no to or the things that we're doing or not doing.
I think about whenever my children want to. Whenever. Whenever kids. Whenever you draw a boundary for a kid, they want to know why you put that boundary there. Oh, yeah, right. Because they wanted to go do that thing. That's why you drew the boundary. Right. This is a conversation that has come up many times in my home.
And it's like, well, why is that boundary there now? It didn't used to be.
Well, you didn't used to want to go over there, you know, and I've explained this in terms of almost like a, like a, I'm going to put it in agricultural terms, like a cow in like a field, you know, and it's like, okay, like part of this field is fenced. There's a whole area that's not because the cow never ever went over there. And so. No, you didn't. It was. It didn't even matter. You need to build a fence over there and then one day you find the cow over in that rogue field. It's like, oh, no, we gotta build some fence over there really fast because there's a highway there and there's some poisonous stuff growing over there. You know, whatever. We have to get on that. So when you put a new boundary in place.
And again, we're talking about this for us in terms of protecting our kids from certain things when it comes to sexuality or whatever.
They want to know why you built that fence.
And I think it's good parenting, shepherding to explain why you built that fence.
And you don't have to go into graphic detail, but I think age appropriate detail you should lean into. On like, here's what I'm concerned about is over there. This is why we're not going to go there.
Because I think that I've seen my children respond to those kinds of explanations in a way that's like, oh, okay,
[00:20:42] Speaker B: so what you're saying is because I said so is not.
[00:20:45] Speaker C: That's exactly where I was going.
[00:20:47] Speaker A: That was the long way of saying what I said.
[00:20:49] Speaker C: Yeah, sometimes that has to be dropped, but very rarely is that the right answer.
[00:20:56] Speaker B: I think some of the least inspiring words for obedience to inspire obedience in the heart of your children are because I said so.
A much better. Even if you can't come up with anything else, a much better phrase is because God said so. If you got nothing else, at least go there.
But I think generally when we make hard rules, it's good to give difficult whys. It's good to be able to say, yeah, this is a hard rule, but I have a good reason for it. And it is for again, your good. It is because I love you and being able to draw that out and make those connections.
One of the other things that I would say too is as we think about the idea of a theology of the fall and of, I guess, understanding sexual desires or understanding friends that don't live the way we do.
I think it's really important to talk about what the Fall did to us in terms of distortion, in terms of our inability to relate to God wisely.
One of the things that, again, is hard for kids, and I think if you've raised a teenager and you're trying to point them towards Jesus really in any capacity, the idea of following Jesus, the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing. There's just going to be certain things about following Jesus that look really, really stupid to your lost friends or don't make sense to the lost world.
And so when we say, yeah, you're not going to date until you're 16 or 18 or 22 or 45 or whatever it is that you think is. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Whichever one you choose as a parent, there's going to be pushback.
And again, to be able to say, well, there's a reason that this looks foolish in your eyes, and it's because at certain points your heart is sinful.
[00:23:02] Speaker C: Yeah. The Fall distorts desires fundamentally, and that's why this conversation is even happening. But it's also why our kids need not permissive parenting, especially in this area,
[00:23:16] Speaker A: which is hard, man. Because I don't like disappointing my kids.
I'm just gonna say it.
[00:23:24] Speaker B: It's not fun.
[00:23:24] Speaker A: I don't like disappointing my kids. It is not fun. They don't like you for a little bit after that. They know all the things to like, buttons to try to push because they're smart, you know, to try to get you to do the thing anyways.
And this isn't just like. Cause my children are particularly evil or just. It's just children. Right. That's just how it is. I don't like disappointing them. I don't like telling my kids no, generally, I just don't. I think some people maybe do. I don't. And so I feel the sting of having to enforce a no, we're not going to do that. And I know you don't like it and I'll talk to you about why, but it's not going to happen.
I think that one thing that helps soften that a little bit is if we from an early age get our children accustomed to being rather different from the culture.
[00:24:24] Speaker C: Absolutely right.
[00:24:27] Speaker A: Maybe even sometimes in ways that are not sort of like life and death critical, but just doing certain things where it's like, we don't do that.
We're not like the culture in that way we don't just do what everybody else does in this way. I actually think that's a really valuable heart posture, like mental and spiritual habit to get kids accustomed to going, it's okay if I can't do the things that my friends do or say inverse, because we're just talking prohibitively all the time.
It can be a good thing if I'm going this way, everybody else is going that way. Yeah, it can be a really good thing.
[00:25:02] Speaker C: Generally a good thing.
[00:25:03] Speaker A: Yeah. Right. And so having them see that early so that when you have to draw a boundary again, they're still probably gonna be mad at you.
[00:25:13] Speaker B: Yeah, they're gonna. But, you know, disappointment is what it is.
[00:25:15] Speaker A: It's built in at least for them to be able to kind of process that a little bit more. So there's my.
[00:25:19] Speaker B: Totally agree with that thought. Totally agree.
[00:25:21] Speaker C: Well, can I just free some parents from a little bit of that for a second?
[00:25:24] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:25:24] Speaker C: I've had many lunches and conversations with lots and lots of young adults in the past few years and, you know, especially young men who grew up in, in the age of, of pornography and, you know, rampant social media addiction and Snapchat and TikTok, all this stuff.
And almost every single one of them have said, yeah, I wish my parents would have been stricter in this having, having lived through the horrors of not having protection here. I wish my parents would have been stricter.
[00:25:58] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:25:58] Speaker C: Now in the moment, it's like of course, by teenagers incensed right now.
[00:26:03] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:26:05] Speaker C: But when I talk to the 20, 25 year olds, they're all saying, yep, I wish we would have had a little more protection here.
[00:26:14] Speaker A: And that's ultimately, I think that that's, that's ultimately on the parent to recognize, have that longer view. Right. Because a kid, a teenager, how they are right now is they think this is how all of life is and how, you know, this is everything, this moment.
[00:26:36] Speaker C: Right.
[00:26:37] Speaker A: And you're like, you won't even remember this moment in a week, much less in five, 10 years.
And so that is the perspective that God gives us, being a little older, to be able to go, you're going to be okay.
And to be able to hold the line again, not in a way that is designed to be spiteful towards our children or to just stir them up, but genuinely in a loving way in areas that are protecting them and all that. So, yeah, I think that's good.
Just being able to go, you know, we're going to be late by your friends, metrics to this particular thing. I think there is some value to teaching children to use some of those tools wisely later on. Right. Like, I don't want my kids to have never experienced things that are gonna be part of their lives in adulthood. You know, various social medias or screen or whatever. And when they turn 18, it's like, all right, well, you can whatever apps you want. I hope it works. Yeah. See ya.
[00:27:34] Speaker B: Right.
[00:27:35] Speaker A: So there is some wisdom to, like, teaching them to use those things wisely. I didn't mean to go down that road so far, but just, yeah, it's okay that you delay some of those things or that you very tightly monitor some of those things and explain to them why and go, you know what? If you don't like it, just trust the Lord. Trust the Lord that the Lord gave me as your parents, and you don't even have to like me right now. You don't actually even have to trust me right now. Just trust the Lord that he gave us to you.
And that's actually.
That's sufficient.
[00:28:07] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think just along those lines, you know, whether it's some of the dating stuff or whether it's even, you know, just being exposed to certain forms of entertainment or social media or whatever, I mean, all of those things are filled with sexual images and innuendos and what have you.
I would just say, you know, generally, parents, the. The line that so many of us want to walk is we don't want to, I think, be so rules oriented that we push our children away. I hear that a lot. You know, I don't want to push my teenager away.
And I would just encourage you to pray heavily about how to do this.
You are called to disappoint your child because they are sinners.
You are not called to exasperate your child.
[00:28:58] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a good distinction.
[00:29:00] Speaker B: And I think that is the thing that is really hard for a lot of parents to walk. Because in the moment, some of that disappointment looks very exasperated. It looks really angry, and it looks really frustrated and upset. And so praying for wisdom about, okay, Lord, show me how to, again, the sinful disposition.
Teach me how to disappoint that, how to confront that, how to, frankly, help my child put that to death and then do it. In a way, though, that is not exasperating them.
[00:29:31] Speaker A: Yeah, not provoking.
[00:29:32] Speaker B: Right, exactly. Exactly. And that's hard. And I would say, so here's where we'll go along in terms of sexuality and gender along that line. That I think is maybe the heart of the conversation in some ways. Or at least why it's so tricky.
What do you do when your teen, let's just say teen, has a friend who is homosexual, transgendered, whatever the case is, and they say to your child, I feel this way and there's nothing I can do about it.
What do you say to that?
[00:30:07] Speaker C: There's a lot there. There's a lot there, a lot there. I think there's a couple things that the principles that I think we could apply from scripture.
One of them is just the folly of the young heart.
Meaning there's a lot of kids who have felt a certain way and a week later, a month later, a year later, forgot that they ever felt a certain way.
And so to recognize the fickleness of feelings, the irreliability of pretty much every feeling, but also to teach our children that we're not going to pick it on the side of the sidewalk with a sign that says, everyone's going to hell, you suck.
[00:30:56] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. So I think there's like, you're saying there's a lot there. One of the thoughts that runs through my head immediately is when we think about in particular the feelings.
You know, feelings matter. God gave us emotions. God gave us feelings. But again, it goes back to the theology of sin.
Even our feelings are distorted and deceptive, right?
[00:31:16] Speaker C: Sure, absolutely.
[00:31:17] Speaker B: Jeremiah 17. The heart is deceptive above all else. Who can know it. And so there's moments like when I look at my children, especially when they were younger, they would feel afraid about something, genuinely terrified, and there was no reason to be afraid whatsoever. Right. The feeling was deceptive. It was real.
And it would be wrong of me to look at my 3 year old and they're afraid of the firework and say, oh, well, build a bridge. I don't care about your feelings.
That's wrong.
But it's also wrong to pick up my child and run and affirm and let's just scream because the fireworks are blowing up.
[00:31:53] Speaker C: Right, Right.
I've heard it said that feelings are a lot like a smoke alarm.
[00:31:58] Speaker B: Right? Exactly right.
[00:32:00] Speaker C: There's a fire somewhere, but that's not the fire.
[00:32:03] Speaker B: And so that's exactly right. I think recognizing, okay, hey, you may have some feelings or your friend may have some feelings, but that doesn't mean you have to be led by them, mastered by them, or anything like that. And so recognizing the culture has placed feelings as equal to truth in so many conversations. And I think as Christians, one of our callings is to say, actually, no, feelings do not equal truth.
They could be aligned with truth. They could also be very misaligned with truth.
And to recognize that early on in the conversation. I think the other thing Ryan said, that was really good, too, in terms of the picket sign, and that was a really good image, is balancing conviction and compassion that, hey, as Christians, we do have convictions, but we are called to be people who recognize every person is made in the image of God, every man, woman, child. It doesn't matter if they have a different sexual ethic than us.
They are precious in the sight of God in some way. And so for us to pretend that they are less than is also sinful.
I grew up in the Deep south, and when I was growing up, gay kids got picked on horrifically. I mean, they got beat up and made fun of and mocked. And so was that sin?
Absolutely. Was it wrong? Absolutely.
There is a way that we can show grace and compassion and yet speak truth. And that's. I mean, again, the biblical ideal of Jesus.
Full of grace and what.
And truth. And so that's our call in. In the world and to recognize then. And when we talk with our teenage children, if you live with grace and truth, you will be maligned at moments.
[00:34:04] Speaker C: And it is what a fundamentally good lesson for our children to learn that being an outsider is a normal feeling of the Christian life.
[00:34:13] Speaker B: Yeah. Boy, that's hard, though.
[00:34:15] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. You follow Jesus, seriously, you're going to feel like an outsider for 60, 70 years now. And, you know, in high school, it's like for the three of us, comparatively. I was not in high school all that long ago and felt like that must maybe a jab, maybe I'm coming up nine years.
[00:34:35] Speaker A: I think he just views me as wise, maybe.
Yes, Certainly old and wise.
[00:34:41] Speaker C: But you feel like that chapter of your life is never going to end. And to remind our kids of the.
The brevity of time.
[00:34:47] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:34:49] Speaker C: Hey, this feels really hard right now. And by me telling you this is hard right now, but it'll get easier. It's not me minimizing what you're feeling. It's just me telling you the truth.
[00:34:57] Speaker A: Yeah, Yeah. I share those kinds of things with my children. Like, man, I remember standing where you're standing. I remember it, and I remember it feeling like it was all there was in the world and that time was standing still like that. This was all encompassing of my life. And then all of a sudden, I looked up and I was out of high school and I was. It was all. Oh, it was like none of that even mattered. So, yeah, I try to have a lot of those conversations with My kids and help them zoom out a little bit from the current moment and recognize being different than the world is going to be what it's always like. So it's time to get started.
You know, I think also. Yeah.
And like we were saying, whether it's through a Disney movie or through a kid at school or a family member or whatever else that has chosen a sinful lifestyle, whether it's living with someone they're not married to or homosexuality or whatever else. Right.
I think it is an opportunity for several things. I think it's like you were saying one, for us to go, what have we said in our home about being guided by our feelings?
[00:36:07] Speaker C: Yeah. What do you understand?
[00:36:08] Speaker A: What have we talked about? You know, what do you think about that? Like, do you think we ought to just go along with everything that we feel and kind of let that be a dialogue? And I think that can be a really, really good conversation.
And then also genuinely talking about sin and how it's destructive and how we should. Why don't we pray for them right now? Actually, let's pray that they will repent and that they will find the true good that God has extended to them because that's what we want to see for them. We hate that they've chosen that because it's destroying them. And those are the kinds of conversations again with my 6 year old. It's going to look a little different than with my 16 year old or something, but those are the kinds of conversations I think that really they don't give in to the, to the table the culture tried to set.
We go in and we go, here's how we have always spoken about this.
And also, let's say a prayer for this person.
Let's seek God's work in their life.
[00:37:09] Speaker B: Absolutely. No, that's so important. And I'm really glad you went there because I think one of the things that we need to guard against in terms of any kind of conversation about sexual ethics, whether it is about homosexuality or even just purity from not sleeping with your boyfriend or girlfriend before you get married or whatever the case may be that whatever the sin is is not beyond redemption.
We serve a God who can do incredible things. And I think about, and I can't quote the reference off the top of my head, but Paul writes, and he gives one of his vice lists in 1 Corinthians and he says, you know, some of you were swindlers and some of you were effeminate and some of you were, you know, homosexuals, idolaters and Greeks. He gets to this long list, and he gets to the end. He says, but these were who you are. He says, such were some of you. But you've been washed, you've been purified, you've been sanctified. And so no matter what the sin is, God's grace is always greater. God's grace is always better and able to overcome the depths of our darkest sins.
[00:38:17] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, again, yeah, it's like you can repent and you can receive the abundant life that God extends you. My child can do that.
And this friend or family member, whoever else it is that we're talking about in this conversation can do that, and that's what we would seek for them. Repentance is the call.
[00:38:36] Speaker C: Yeah. I think we ought to do an episode on just mistakes Christians have made in engaging the homosexuality conversation, because there's a lot there.
But I think for the purposes of talking to our children about these things, it's a really masterful and skillful thing when you can turn an honest question from your child into a gospel opportunity.
[00:39:02] Speaker A: Oh, yeah,
[00:39:05] Speaker C: I think you're right to say, let's pray for this person. But to say to our kid, you know what, daughter, son, I'm proud that the Holy Spirit has worked it out in your heart that you are sad about that person's confusion.
Christians need to feel that we are far too angry these days.
When someone messes up when they live according to their flesh, that's their king.
It should lead to certainly conviction. We need to speak the truth,
[00:39:37] Speaker B: but
[00:39:37] Speaker C: we need to render these things unto the Spirit, unto the Father, and tell our kids. I'm glad that that confusion saddens you. That's great. That's a great reminder that the Holy Spirit is working in you. Let's do what Christians have always done and get on our knees and pray and pray often. Not just one time. Pray often. Over and over and over again, years and years and years. Sometimes, yeah.
[00:40:00] Speaker B: That mixture of grace and truth is one thing that, you know, only Jesus got it perfect. Right? Only he did that perfectly. And I think that's one of the things that we have to recognize even as we have these conversations, that there may be moments where we draw a line that comes across. Maybe our children received it a little too hard or a little too black and white in terms of, hey, maybe as a parent, I gave a rule and you received it in a way that I didn't mean. That doesn't mean that I hate you if you break that rule.
If you did sleep with your boyfriend or girlfriend, that doesn't define who you are in my eyes, as, as a father, you're still my child.
And to know again that the cross is the answer for your sin, whatever the case may be.
Yeah, I think maybe that is one of the great tensions of all of these conversations, because we tend to go too far into grace or we tend to go too far into truth when we have these conversations.
[00:41:02] Speaker A: Yeah. Like, I want my children to have a unmitigated sense of the seriousness of sin.
[00:41:08] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:41:09] Speaker A: Like, I don't want them to go, well, I could just sort of, you know, dabble around in sexual sin and, you know, there's grace.
[00:41:16] Speaker C: Right.
[00:41:17] Speaker B: No big deal.
[00:41:17] Speaker A: Like, that's not what I want. That's not good. But yeah, also imparting a recognition that, like, if we sin, you know, God's grace is greater while then also going, yeah, but man, we're going to draw some boundaries because, like, we want to flee from any opposition, the desires of the flesh. So, like, that is the challenge, that's the tension. Because we want them to be people who understand God's forgiveness and grace, but be people who genuinely hate every, you know, the garment stained by the flesh. Right. Like just even the hint of sin, to flee from it and not be just kind of like, ah, it's no big deal, really, it's fine. In fact, you know what? There's a lot of people doing a lot worse than you, you know, because I think that.
[00:42:03] Speaker C: Not helpful.
[00:42:04] Speaker A: Not that that's what Christian parents generally want, but I think we should be aware of being kind of lackadaisical in that way about it, and talk to our children about grace and forgiveness, but also be serious. And what we talk about, like, the effects of sin, the wages of sin is death.
[00:42:21] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:42:22] Speaker A: And death is, you know, we talk about death being ceasing from life, but death is also the thing that you experience immediately upon earning the wages from your sin. Right. Like in your own body or whatever else you experience. The penalties of your sin, they're built in.
[00:42:40] Speaker C: Right. So, you know, I think in most of these conversations of parenting and conversations with our kids, you know, we are living in very complex times.
The tides are changing every day on these topics. Every day there's a new fight, a new show, a new phrase, a new app, you name it.
[00:43:00] Speaker A: We're recording this during the month that they have claimed for homosexuality gay.
[00:43:06] Speaker C: I mean, I saw like the most classic children's show of all time, almost Sesame Street.
[00:43:11] Speaker A: Oh, yeah.
[00:43:12] Speaker C: All over the Facebook is posting their, you know, pride flags. So the times are complicated.
But what a tragedy it would be for Christians to shudder in fear as if we don't have the answer for all of it.
But also to say that for every generation of Christian understanding, our children catch more things by seeing them.
And probably the greatest gift that you can give your kids in this conversation, moms and dads need to be in love with each other and enjoy each other in front of their kids because we cannot say with our mouths that God's designs are best. And we believe the Bible and marriage is a good thing.
But husbands are short with their wives and talk about them as if they're a bondage or holding them back. Or wives to talk about their husbands as if they're stupid or unhelpful or whatever the case.
One of the greatest, if not the greatest, gift we can give to our kids in the conversation of sexuality is to show them that marriage is amazing.
[00:44:24] Speaker A: You know, lift it up. Yeah, it's great.
[00:44:27] Speaker B: No, I totally agree with that. I think one of the reasons that, and this is an entirely another topic, but one of the reasons that Christians have lost the battle to some degree in the culture around sexuality and our identity is because we have not held up a beautiful, compelling vision of Christian marriage. And I think again, sometimes we joke about these things. But calling your spouse the ball and chain or doing these things, yeah, that convinces no one that, hey, this is really good and sacred and a great gift from God that I should look forward to.
And so, yeah, the way that you live with your spouse, the way that you do interact with people that maybe don't share your worldview, do you hate those people? Honestly, do you constantly go to church and you talk about, yeah, we're all made in the image of God and you bash those people or even politicians. I mean, we all have to be careful. There's politicians out there that promote some other worldview. Really loud and proud.
Do you curse those people? Do you hate those people? And your kids watch that and see that those inconsistencies, frankly, are just as dangerous as perhaps the worldview that you're so riled up against.
[00:45:49] Speaker C: It's a double minded tongue.
[00:45:51] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:45:51] Speaker C: You can't say that the gospel is power of salvation for all people and then say, well, that person is too far gone. When did you and I become God that we got to decide that, right?
There's a time and place. Obviously you don't want to not say the truth, but really, let no unwholesome talk proceed from your mouth.
It matters how we talk about people. Well, they're going to hell in a handbasket. When did you get to decide that? That doesn't mean we don't look at the fruit of person's life and say they're madly confused. But the Christian response of that is sorrow, not anger.
[00:46:22] Speaker B: That's exactly right.
Yeah. So I think those are a few things that we would point out.
Again, start the conversations early. Cast a positive vision for a biblical worldview. Give your children a rich theology of sin and the fall and the idea that your emotions do not define you and should not lead you.
They are a gift from God we should pay attention to but not submit ourselves to. I think the idea that your identity is again already given and granted by a holy God. You don't have to discover it, you don't have to find it out.
He knows who you are. In fact, he knew you before you were in your mother's womb. Right. So I mean all of these things and then, yes, being able to define very clearly as our children grow and develop, giving them frankly those categories of we have conviction, but we want to also have compassion. We want to show and speak truth boldly, but we want to also put forth and hold forth grace and the vision for redemption. I think all of those things matter deeply when we think about the conversation of gender and sexuality with our kids.
[00:47:37] Speaker C: And we're not going to apologize for saying proudly that we know the best way to do it according to scripture.
[00:47:43] Speaker B: No, I think that's one of the best things. One of the best things we can say is again, we actually think this is rich. Like this is where the good life is.
[00:47:53] Speaker C: Yes, right, right, right.
[00:47:55] Speaker A: Not apologizing for it. Not like, well, you know, it would more fun if it weren't this way. But no, no, like we've found the treasure.
[00:48:03] Speaker B: That's exactly right.
[00:48:04] Speaker C: This is it.
[00:48:05] Speaker A: Yeah. And meaning that like actually you believing that as a parent. Right. I mean, I hope you believe that absolutely it and that your, your heart isn't wayward to desire. You know what God has said no to.
Ryan, you had a couple resources you brought as we wrap up.
[00:48:22] Speaker C: Both of these are in our Faith at Home center at the church. This is book called what Do I say? A Parent's Guide for Navigating Cultural Chaos for Children and Teens. A very helpful resource. And then this is also super helpful. There are seven lessons to introduce your child to biblical sexuality. I also just want to say I realize that there's probably a lot of follow up questions potentially after an episode like this.
[00:48:47] Speaker A: Yeah. I would love for people to submit some. I'd love to field some of that. Like specific questions even.
[00:48:52] Speaker C: Yeah, send them to one of our emails. And this is a complex conversation, whether or not we address those in the podcast. We'd love to just have conversations with folks who are dealing with this. Some of us have experienced this firsthand in terms of family members or close friends who struggle with this mightily. And so I want to just encourage you all, don't be afraid to ask a question. These are bewildering times we're living in. We don't have all the answers, but we really want to be helpful in this confusing area.
[00:49:22] Speaker A: God's Word does. And that's the resource that you have.
That's the best resource you brought today was the leather bound copy right there. Expensive leather bound copy, you know, worth it.
And I'm going to close with actually a passage from the Word In Deuteronomy, chapter 6, verses 6 through 9. And these words that I command you today shall be on your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your children and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way, when you lie down and when you rise, you shall bind them as a sign on your hand. They shall be as frontlets between your eyes. You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates. Let the gospel permeate all of your conversations within your home and with your children, and may you be blessed by it for the glory of God and His kingdom further up and further in. We'll see you soon, Sam.
[00:50:41] Speaker B: Sa.
[00:51:38] Speaker C: Jesus sa.
