Episode Transcript
[00:00:17] Speaker A: Imagine that somebody could examine every single financial decision that you have made over the past year. They saw every purchase, every subscription. I think there's an app for that, actually. But every debt payment, every charitable gift, every. Every moment that you chose, whether you were going to save or spend or borrow or give, without hearing a single word from you, what would your finances reveal about what you love, what you fear, what you trust?
Money, we learn, is never only about money.
Money is about a lot of things. Money has the promise of security, comfort, status, freedom, experiences.
It can offer a sense of control.
Jesus talks a lot about money.
He understood that our relationship with money often exposes the true condition of our hearts. And the Bible is full of guidance about how we ought to think about it.
So in this episode in our ongoing Matters of Conscience series, we're going to be asking, what should Christians think? How should Christians think about wealth?
Are believers supposed to pursue it, avoid it? Just hold it loosely? How much should we give?
Is debt sinful? Should you go into debt to give?
That's an interesting one.
[00:01:39] Speaker B: That's an interesting one.
[00:01:40] Speaker A: Welcome to this next episode of Word and Flesh, a podcast produced by the elders of Riverview Baptist Church for Riverview Baptist Church, meant to encourage, edify you and equip you to think well about your faith, to dive into the Scriptures and grow in your faith, and to knit our church together as we wrestle with, frankly right now, some really challenging issues. Because we're in this ongoing Matters of Conscience series.
And last episode, we talked about alcohol. This episode, we are talking about money.
And I do have the screenshot of the text from Ryan in which Michael proposed that we talk about alcohol and money. And Ryan replied, I love alcohol and money.
[00:02:21] Speaker C: It lacked nuance.
[00:02:22] Speaker A: It lacked nuance. So he said.
[00:02:24] Speaker C: I clarified rather quickly that I would like to talk about both of them.
[00:02:28] Speaker A: Yeah, I screenshotted it for future.
[00:02:30] Speaker C: Okay, go ahead. Use it against me in the future. Exactly.
[00:02:34] Speaker A: Okay. So the Bible talks truly a lot about wealth. We found this in the last episode. The Bible talks a lot about alcohol. It talks a lot about wealth. Jesus teaches a lot about wealth.
And my goodness, you can go on the YouTubes and find pastors talking a lot about wealth. Oh, yeah.
[00:02:54] Speaker C: So
[00:02:58] Speaker A: let's start with how should Christians think about wealth? First question is, is wealth a bad thing? I'm going to start with the softball question. Is wealth a bad thing?
[00:03:09] Speaker B: I think that's, you know, that is a softball. But the interesting thing is it is becoming more controversial all the time, even as our society shifts kind of more Secular and liberal and perhaps even socialistic or communistic. You know, I see posting on X that, hey, Elon is inherently evil.
[00:03:30] Speaker A: Oh, he's a trillionaire.
[00:03:34] Speaker B: And so, yeah, that's an interesting take. And obviously the answer to that is no. Right.
Wealth is not inherently evil.
Every good gift that we enjoy in this life is a gift from God. And so money is and can be a blessing. And in fact, we know this.
Father Abraham, if you go back and read his life, was clearly extravagantly wealthy and powerful.
King David viewed that as God's blessing. That's right.
[00:04:04] Speaker A: I mean, didn't just view it as that. It was God.
[00:04:06] Speaker B: It literally was God's blessing.
[00:04:07] Speaker A: God blessed him with. And it, like, gives us lists of, like, camels and all these things. Right. He had massive wealth.
[00:04:12] Speaker B: Absolutely.
Same thing. You know, even down the road, you know, you get into Jacob and Esau and Jacob, when he's on the run and is actually, you know, breeding sheeps and goats.
[00:04:25] Speaker A: Dude gets all the striped. Yeah.
[00:04:27] Speaker B: And it turns out he becomes wealthy and rich. And it says, this happened by the hand of the Lord.
And so, yeah, you know, again, whether it's the kings of Israel. Yeah, exactly. All the way through, it is a blessing.
And sadly, in America, you know, what we tend to do is we almost refer to being blessed specifically in regards to money.
[00:04:50] Speaker C: Oh, yeah.
[00:04:51] Speaker B: And so that's our own problem and our own commentary for where we're at as a culture. But no, it's not innately evil. And I think recognizing that, one of my favorites is Deuteronomy 8, 17, 18, where it outlines that God gives the power to produce wealth. And actually in the book of Deuteronomy, humbles them and says, I didn't pick you because you were great. I didn't pick you because you were essentially mighty as a nation. In fact, you were some of the least of of the nations.
I chose you and I blessed you because I'm gracious, I'm God.
And I think that is a great place to start when we think about wealth. Whatever you have is from the hand of the Lord.
[00:05:31] Speaker A: That's a good. Yeah, that is a great sort of setting of the table there that whatever you have, whether it's a lot or a little, is from the hand of the Lord.
[00:05:38] Speaker C: Exactly right. Which would imply that wealth on its own is not inherently sinful, but there are sinful ways to achieve it.
[00:05:49] Speaker A: Oh, no doubt.
[00:05:50] Speaker C: Orienting your life around being wealthy is a horrible goal and a terrible master and a path to severe idolatry.
I'm Going to orient my life to be rich.
I've never met someone where their first goal of being rich was their final goal of being rich.
Meaning if I reach $500,000, I got it. I've never met someone who aimed to do that and stopped there.
[00:06:16] Speaker A: Right, right.
[00:06:16] Speaker C: It's a horrible. So wealth on its own. No, it's not bad.
The way in which you get there can be horribly sinful.
[00:06:25] Speaker A: That's definitely true. Because you can give up all sorts of good things, like good things that God has called you to, to get there. Right. And we see this constant, constant. Right.
You know, men and women giving up their families, women in particular, abdicating their role as the nurturer and the homemaker to go and just make the gazillions. Right. Just be a boss, babe. Right.
But you know what I mean?
Our culture is swimming in this.
It's totally fine for you to give up anything or it holds out this like, you can have them both. Right. This imaginary idea that you could have it.
[00:07:10] Speaker C: All. Right, not true.
[00:07:12] Speaker A: Not true. Right. But just agreeing with your point that the how you get there, wealth itself is not inherently bad, but the how you get there can absolutely be the destruction of every good thing that God
[00:07:25] Speaker C: has given you in the way we're talking about it. I mean, Michael just said wealth is a gift.
Gift is something that you receive.
[00:07:32] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:07:33] Speaker C: Yeah. Not by entirely passive action.
You act to receive the gift, but a gift is something that by its own definition is given by someone else, not.
I'm going to grit and bear it to have the American dream.
[00:07:47] Speaker B: Right.
So then here's the next, I think, logical step in terms of parsing out. Okay, well, what does the Bible say?
Why does Jesus speak of wealth so much? Which he does. He talks of money just about more than anything else, interestingly. So why does Jesus talk about money so much? And why does Paul prohibit the love of money and how people that have loved money have pierced themselves through with many pangs? And so what is it about wealth that's dangerous?
[00:08:21] Speaker C: Well, I think it's one of the few things in scripture that Jesus ties a direct line straight to the heart.
[00:08:27] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's exactly right.
[00:08:28] Speaker C: For where your treasure is, there your heart is.
[00:08:32] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:08:32] Speaker C: I mean, it's one of the, like, you know, like, I don't want to say this and give consent to do. To do simple things, but there is such kind of a situation where you can. You can say a word you regret, and it's not such a direct line. I mean, from the overflow of the mouth, the heart speaks. From overflow, the heart of the mouth speaks. Like it is a line.
But Jesus says definitively, for where your treasure is, there your heart is.
I mean, it's a direct line of what do I treasure, what do I love, what do I delight in? Who is my God?
Money is one of the few things that draw a really direct line.
[00:09:10] Speaker A: I think that's exactly right. And I think that that's why. And we talked actually a little bit about tithing in the last episode.
The interesting connection in Deuteronomy there, the interesting instructions about tithing. But I think that is why the tithe exists, is because it's. It's this reminder of the thing that would be the dearest, would tempt, you know, would be tempting to be the dearest thing to you, that it is not yours.
It has been given to you by God. And when you give it back, it's like a.
In the same way that we do all these other kinds of rituals, things that remind us of true things. And part of the reason of doing it is to, like, continue reminding yourself of it, Right?
[00:09:49] Speaker C: Yep.
[00:09:49] Speaker A: That the tithe is not because God is poor, but it's because you are spiritually in need. Right. You're potentially spiritually impoverished, or at least you could be. Right. You're in need of that reminder. And so the tithe actually reorients our heart to going, God is the one who supplies all my needs and he owns everything, and everything I have received is from his hand.
And again, it does work on you.
[00:10:17] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And so, you know, I love the. The turn of phrase. I don't know where I heard it, but it's not how much you possess, it's what possesses your heart.
And so, yeah.
Do my material possessions tend to enslave me to them in some way, or am I genuinely free from the love of money? I mean, I think that is the hard issue.
Even though, as we say that
[00:10:45] Speaker A: the
[00:10:45] Speaker B: classic, like, line that, I mean, you're going to hear this. If you take the Dave Ramsey course or whatever, the Financial Peace University, you're a steward, Right? That's how a Christian relates to money. That's true.
But really, what does that mean?
What does it mean to be a steward of your money? Because I would say that you can nod along and tip your hat to that idea and still live as though I'm good. I can live however I want.
Every once in a while, I give to the church or I give to this charity. And so I'm A good steward.
And I'm good. I don't have to think about it further than that. I would wager there's more attached to stewarding your money than just making sure, hey, I gave my 10% or I give to the charity of this choice or whatever.
[00:11:39] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:11:39] Speaker B: So what does stewardship look like in terms of money? I guess is what I'm asking.
[00:11:44] Speaker A: Like, in other words, you're asking, what would a good steward of money be?
[00:11:48] Speaker B: Exactly. That's exactly right.
[00:11:49] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:11:50] Speaker B: How do you know if you're being a good steward? That's the point. Yeah.
[00:11:53] Speaker C: Well, I mean, just by definition, what is the job of a steward is to do the bidding of a master.
So to deploy your gifts and skills and resources on behalf of the master, not to build your own kingdom, but to build a kingdom of a different master.
[00:12:09] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:12:10] Speaker C: That's literally what a steward is.
And so am I accumulating massive wealth when I see significant needs, especially in the community of God, right in front of me, and I have no pause about that owner, do I?
This can be a little controversial, but I don't care.
I do care, but I don't really. Like, are you.
Are you dispensing? You know, think about the steward. Are you dispensing your gifts in proportion to your generosity?
That steward serving the master is.
He's serving in such a way that cost him something.
He's expending something that cost him.
It's not just, well, I'm going to give. I'm going to give on the margins of what I can. Right. It's not like, you know, well, I got everything paid for and I have this excess, I'm gonna give. That being a steward means it implies you're giving in such a way that it actually cost you something dear.
[00:13:22] Speaker B: Yeah, that's good. You know, I think in terms of stewardship, one of the things that comes to mind is the parable of the talents. Right.
And the idea is, I would wager the reason Jesus is teaching that in that particular moment is actually less about money and more about just the way that you steward your life.
But the principle carries over into money.
Essentially, he says, hey, I was afraid you were a hard man. I knew you to be a hard man. And so I held onto what you gave me and I hid it.
And essentially I took no risk.
And I actually would say that that is an interesting call. Not that we should ever be foolish and squander our money, but that if we never take some risk to follow the Lord in terms of serving the kingdom, or being generous or doing something that pushes us beyond our comfort zone a little bit financially. Now, again, not so that I can be comfortable, not so that I can have the bigger house or the better car or chase the American dream, but actually serve the kingdom. Like, I'm going to give in some way. Maybe someone's never going to even see it, but I see this family at Christmas, and I'm going to bless them. And that means I have a little bit less on my Christmas or under my tree.
I think there's something to that about Jesus call and the way that we steward our resources. It should be costly at moments.
[00:14:55] Speaker A: Yeah. So to that point, I agree. Giving, giving, if it's not costly, is.
Doesn't come from the same heart that the kind of giving that it's not
[00:15:06] Speaker C: really the biblical definition of generosity.
[00:15:08] Speaker A: Right. So I remember learning, hearing this taught in my late teens and really being struck by it from Second Corinthians, chapter 8, which is one of the most commonly used passages to talk about tithing and giving.
And Paul is writing to the Corinthians, and he says, we want you to know, brothers.
I'm just gonna read a few verses, Chapter eight, verses one, through something we want you to know, brothers, about the grace of God that has been given among the churches of Macedonia. And you go, wait, what's the grace of God that has been given? And he's like, the grace is that they were given grace to give.
Because he says, for in a severe test of affliction, their abundance of joy and their extreme poverty have overflowed in a wealth of generosity on their part. So he's like, they're having the worst time you could possibly imagine. And yet by God's grace, they gave immensely.
For they gave verse three according to their means, as I can testify, and beyond their means of their own accord, begging us earnestly for the favor of taking part in the relief of the saints. And. And this not as we expected, but they gave themselves first to the Lord and then by the will of God to us. So that's Paul's admonition, actually. He's kind of going like, hey, Corinthians, the churches in Macedonia are going through it.
And by the grace of God, they found depths of generosity that are miraculous, almost incredible.
And he says, so you join with them in that now, in giving to this work, Right? So the whole point of that is simply that the church is in Macedonia. He says, this is actually, I think the biggest part of that passage is in verse five, they gave themselves first to the Lord, and then by the will of God to us.
And when he means they gave themselves to us, I think what he means is they gave of their resources to us. Right. So they gave themselves to the Lord, and then they gave themselves to us by his will. And so thinking about how we think well about money, how we think well about giving, again, we don't give 100% of our money away. Right.
But no, no, I mean, then you wouldn't have any left. You know what I mean? Like, we're not.
We addressed this on the outline. I thought that was good in 1st Timothy 6, 17, 19. Wealthy Christians are not commanded to abandon everything.
Right, Right.
But to abandon pride. And Paul commands Christians to be ready to share with any who have need.
But Paul is saying to the Corinthians here, like, give yourselves to the Lord first, and then by his will, it'll be clear to you how to give. And then you'll, by his grace, be able to give in a way that is a massive testimony to other believers or even non believers. Right. So there's one thought I wanted to. What does anyone want to add to that? Or I want to.
[00:18:09] Speaker B: Well, yeah, on the generosity piece. Yeah. I'll just add, you know, so one way to start thinking about, I think, wealth that is biblical and I would say important is how do I position myself financially to be generous?
[00:18:26] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a great question.
[00:18:28] Speaker B: And to start thinking about, you know, is there a way that I can set money aside and save so that I can bless a family beyond my own this Christmas? Is there a way, you know, if I have some money extra saved up? It's not necessarily, at times it can be to get you the new golf clubs, but maybe I'm going to forego the new golf clubs this year so I can get this other family a new set of tires or whatever the case may be. Right. And I think that is, you know, something that is just lacking from a lot of people's budgets. You know, in America, we have plenty, most of us. And so if we do, how do I again position myself where I can be generous?
[00:19:10] Speaker A: Yeah, great question. I wanted to. Not to peel off of that, but I wanted to think a little about what wealth actually is. This is the philosopher in me coming out. Again, I can't help it, because we talk about wealth, we talk about money, and it gets, like you said, even in secular culture, it gets some stigma around it. Everybody, you know, not everybody, some people hate Elon Musk because he has a lot of it. Nobody wants to have a Little of it, right? I mean, you know what I mean? And so you go, but wait, but what is money actually? What actually is wealth? And I think a theological way of understanding what it is is in the right sense, it's obedience to God's command to be fruitful and multiply, right? So God sets Adam and Eve in the garden, he creates the world, calls it good, sets them in the garden, and he says, cultivate it, tend it, be fruitful and multiply. And so if you are doing that well, then the natural byproduct. Again, think about it like in an agricultural sense, if you do that well, then you get a. Plenty of crops. I mean, maybe there's a drought or something and it goes poorly and you have to go to Egypt, you know, whatever. But weird biblical.
[00:20:15] Speaker C: Thanks for that.
[00:20:16] Speaker A: Sorry about that, but.
But you know what I mean. So generally the idea is your wealth increases. And we saw this, you mentioned with, for example, Jacob and stuff, you tend the resources God gave you well, and there's a natural kind of increase baked into doing that. Well, and again, then you go, oh, well, that's why some people go, like, from rags. Have you seen people go from, like, rags to riches and back to rags and back to riches and back to rags?
I've known people like this.
They tend resources terribly, right? They are good at one particular thing, getting a lot of riches, but they actually aren't fulfilling God's command well to like, cultivate and tend and grow and build. And so I actually think that there's a really important theological way of understanding that growing wealth in the right way actually is just obeying God's command to cultivate his earth, like to take care of it, to. To do good work meaningfully. And there's nothing wrong with charging a good rate for good work, right?
So I say that because I don't want to stigmatize wealth. I actually think a lot on the left do that, and I am not doing that again, I don't think that we still.
[00:21:31] Speaker C: Well, the Bible doesn't do that either, right? Proverbs says it's actually a great thing to leave an inheritance for your kids.
[00:21:36] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah. That's Proverbs 13:22. I wrote that one down about leaving an inheritance. Proverbs 31. The Proverbs 31 woman, right? Talks about how she's enterprising and makes a profit on things. So, yeah, the Bible lauds this very much on again, while also all the time warning about the love of money. Solomon in Ecclesiastes, where we've Been warning about, like, hey, if you build these massive piles of wealth, but you don't build generations that love God, then you're going to leave it to a bum who's going to just waste it all in the first generation. Right. So I think wealth is good because can be good because it can actually be the byproduct of doing what God told people to do in the first place. And then I think when it is that it can be good because it can genuinely alleviate real suffering. Right. Like doctor's bills are real. And you know what I mean, like wealth actually can help people do things. It can clear out obstacles and hurdles to, to meaningful ministry even. Right. And to, I mean, I hate to even say it this way, but I hate that this is the reality. But we've seen a birth rate decline in our country and it is, I think, inarguable. People have attributed this to the fact that young people feel really financially pinched.
[00:22:54] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:22:54] Speaker A: You don't even have to look at right now. You can look at other periods in human history when people are financially deeply struggling. I mean, there's outliers, of course, there's impoverished countries that have massive birth rates. They also have tons of infant mortality.
[00:23:06] Speaker C: Right.
[00:23:07] Speaker A: But when there's not wealth, birth rates go down, people suffer and die. So again, not to beat that dead horse too much, but I think it's important just to go that like, there is a absolutely good and godly way to understand wealth as being like how God designed the world to be whenever we cultivate it, whenever we obey him. Doesn't mean that every person that obeys God is going to have a gazillion dollars. So let's just clear that you could obedience to the Lord your whole life and bump along fairly low down there. Right. Like it happens many times and there can be beauty in that. But that's not to say then that anybody who has wealth, it's like, well then that was, you know, that's bad, that's evil.
[00:23:52] Speaker B: Yeah. I hope that's not what anyone's heard. You know, again, the Bible is pretty clear that wealth in and of itself is a blessing and a hand apart from the hand or given by the hand of the Lord. I think, you know, when we think about wealth and one of the reasons it is controversial or at least something that we struggle with is, you know, is it, I think the question of is there such thing as too much and what does that look like? And again, I actually would say I don't think there is necessarily a too much as Much as it is, what am I doing with what God has given me? Am I using this again? Whether you eat or drink or whatever you do to the glory of God, am I using the things that God has given me financially? My resources, my home? Are these blessings that I see and I want to actually turn and bless others with them, or I use them to make much of myself and make my name great and build my own little kingdom.
So here's the other side of the coin.
If wealth is a blessing and not a curse, and I think we've established that.
What about debt?
Is there ever a moment where it's okay to be in debt as a believer?
[00:25:12] Speaker A: I mean, I'm gonna say yes, because I'm in debt.
[00:25:18] Speaker C: That is a really bad way to make a theological argument.
[00:25:22] Speaker B: Oh, my God.
[00:25:22] Speaker A: That's how I make all my arguments. Because if I'm doing it, it's okay.
[00:25:25] Speaker B: Can we cut that?
[00:25:26] Speaker C: For the record, Experiential theology is horrible.
[00:25:29] Speaker A: I entered debt intentionally to buy a home, and I did not feel like I was sinning in doing that much.
[00:25:36] Speaker B: Okay, there we go.
[00:25:37] Speaker A: Yeah. So. But Ryan had something more intelligent to say than that.
[00:25:41] Speaker C: No, I just was saying that yours was unintelligent, but thank you. That was the least.
[00:25:48] Speaker A: So is there a biblical way? Is there a biblical way, like a godly way to have debt?
[00:25:53] Speaker C: Yes, I think there is a responsible way.
And it certainly depends on what the thing you're going into debt is for.
The fact of the matter is the general American doesn't have cash to buy a house. Do you need a house? You need a place to live? Yes. And so if it's for a true need, that's not excessive, then I think the debt could be responsible as far as you can actually pay the bills. Don't be a slave. Pay it back and try to pay it back early.
But, you know, if you're a young person and just want a cool truck and you take out a $55,000 loan, when you could take a $15,000 loan and just drive a car, that gets you there, that's probably not very responsible.
[00:26:33] Speaker A: Right. And I would go. Because you just spent 40 grand on your vanity. Right, right. And that's a steep note, man, for some vanity.
[00:26:42] Speaker B: And I think that's where, you know, if we're honest as Americans, we have blurred that line.
[00:26:47] Speaker C: Definitely.
[00:26:48] Speaker B: Right.
And I think that's where, you know, even when it comes in, do you need a home? Absolutely.
For some of us that have more modest incomes, you may not need a multimillion Dollar estate. Right. You may not need a property that's multimillion dollars if you have a very modest income. You have to be wise and reasonable about these things because the reality is, and we all know this too, the bank will give you a lot more than you can afford. Right.
And position yourself, you can position yourself
[00:27:18] Speaker A: especially with credit cards, I mean, the bank, but then, yeah, you could get all kinds of credit cards. Exactly. Everybody knows this.
Real fast.
[00:27:26] Speaker B: There's a way to get in debt that is shallow and self serving and self centered and possessions focused that actually will prevent you from being able to really serve the kingdom.
[00:27:38] Speaker C: Well, Jesus says that, right. You can't serve God and money. And that term for money is also otherwise translated possessions.
[00:27:46] Speaker B: Right, Mammon. Yeah. And so the reality is, and I do think this even happens just at a practical level from time to time at Riverview.
I can't serve in this event or in this capacity or in this way, not because I need to provide for my family, but I've actually gotten myself into a lot of debt over the years and I've got to work really, really hard now to pay this off. And I would just say, again, I don't use that example to condemn anyone, but it's a tragedy. It's a sad thing when a believer has to reckon with that and say, yeah, I've now got to work super hard and I can't serve God the way I want to. There's certain freedoms now I don't have because of decisions that I've made.
Again, that's where when we think about debt, there are, I think, good debts and wise debts and then there's foolish debts and sinful debts. And being able to parse out the difference is critical for someone that's trying to walk out a wise Christian life.
[00:28:42] Speaker A: Yeah. Because I mean, debt is a tool.
[00:28:44] Speaker C: It is.
[00:28:45] Speaker A: It's a tool and it's a tool to leverage time against income growth. Right. I probably said that a little bit wrong, but it's basically the idea of getting some money up front now that you could have gotten eventually, but it would have taken you forever. And you don't have forever. Right. So that's what it is. And we ought to use tools. Well, I mean, we've talked about that in other areas on this podcast. Right. And so you ought to use it well, you ought not to let the tool own you. Right. Become a servant to the tool. We talked about that on this podcast as well. Technology and stuff. Right.
And so when you think about it that way, it's like, well, okay, then maybe that's a helpful framework to think about debt as a tool to be used thoughtfully, carefully, wisely, and to apply leverage to. To help you grow. Like what God's called you to do.
[00:29:33] Speaker C: Yeah. And one of the things that's made this just extra complicated in the waters we swim in is that money is often directly associated with status.
[00:29:46] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:29:46] Speaker C: Where having nice things is directly associated with status. Right. If I drive the cool car, I'm going to have a certain status, even if it's $60,000 of debt.
I could drive the 2010 is paid off. But no, I need to be the person who has status. I need people to see me as someone who's successful. And you can hear the irony in it because you actually just enslaved yourself to the lender in pursuit of a
[00:30:14] Speaker A: status that's so fleeting, that's tough in business because somebody in the business world, there's a desire to roll up.
[00:30:24] Speaker C: Oh, yeah.
[00:30:24] Speaker A: In the nicest car in the parking lot. Because you have this sense that it helps you honestly, you have this sense that it makes an impression that's going to help you level up. Yep. That might not be 100% untrue, but I think it's almost 100%.
[00:30:39] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:30:40] Speaker A: Like it's not it over promises and under delivers.
[00:30:43] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:30:43] Speaker A: I'm not saying it's actually wrong to have even a nice car. But the point that we're saying, because, like, I'm not saying it's wrong to have a nice house. Right, right. The point that you're making is especially about having a car that's way beyond your means. Your means. Yeah. You went into crazy debt to have this unbelievably expensive thing just for a sense of status.
[00:31:04] Speaker B: So to that end, here's where I think the rubber meets the road for nice car.
Yeah, exactly like that. As Christians, that was clever. Is that we get to a point where honestly, the easier thing would almost be in some way to say, well, you know, one size fits all. No Christian should ever own this kind of car. Or no Christian should ever have a house this big.
[00:31:26] Speaker C: And that gets you universal basic income.
[00:31:29] Speaker B: Exactly. That gets you in some really weird places really fast. Right.
And so, yeah, we are not a cult. We don't believe that we all have to dress alike and look alike and drive the same cars and do the same things.
We believe we are free in Christ. And yet at the very same time, the person whose heart is given towards the Lord won't be mastered, as we've talked about, by entertainment, won't be mastered by alcohol and won't be mastered by money.
And so that is, I think, the interesting tension in give and take and the car thing. I mean, I felt, even as a pastor, I mean, full disclosure, I had a car that was essentially almost gifted to me at one point, and it was a BMW. And I actually received some comments, multiple comments, that I shouldn't be driving that car.
[00:32:17] Speaker C: Even from me.
[00:32:18] Speaker A: I mean, I gave it to you, but I just gave it to you.
[00:32:20] Speaker B: I know, but the reality is I couldn't wait to honestly in some way unload that thing because it became this like, hey, I'm being judged for driving this car.
[00:32:30] Speaker A: And I think you also had a lot of maintenance problems.
[00:32:31] Speaker B: It had all kind of maintenance problems. And so I was ready to unload it. You know, forget the fact that it was heavily used and not in perfect condition when I had it, but it just had that title.
[00:32:39] Speaker C: The dashboard looked like a Christmas tree.
[00:32:42] Speaker B: At any rate, the point is this, that it goes both ways.
The person who has less needs to be really careful. You may not have much money. You say, well, I don't have a problem with the love of money.
Actually, if you stand and you cast aspersions and you cast stones at people that have more money than you, that may be a great warning sign. Warning, warning, warning. You love money.
You just don't have it.
And so I do think this whole love of money thing is much more subtle and deceptive than any of us really want to admit.
[00:33:16] Speaker C: Okay, let's just be honest.
95% of Americans love money.
Is that fair to say we all have a hint on it?
[00:33:24] Speaker A: 100%.
[00:33:24] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:33:25] Speaker A: I'm going to go 100.
[00:33:26] Speaker C: Okay, deal.
[00:33:27] Speaker A: I mean, I'll raise my hand. Guilty. I'm not saying, like I'm actively being controlled.
[00:33:30] Speaker C: Yeah. I'm not by it, but I should think about it.
[00:33:32] Speaker A: But yeah, like struggle with this. Have struggled with envy. When I've seen a person, a situation, whatever, it's the waters we swim in.
And I. That is not limited to any income tier. And I almost wonder if sometimes it actually intensifies the higher income tiers. I mean, you know, the, this, this sense of wanting more. I mean, what's that, that line, right? Like, how much? Who was it was. I think it was Rockefeller. I'm gonna mess it up. It's one of those famous kind of old money guys in the US how much would be enough?
[00:34:01] Speaker B: Just a little bit more. Yeah, I love that.
[00:34:03] Speaker C: Buffett, Warren.
[00:34:04] Speaker B: Warren Buffett.
[00:34:05] Speaker A: Yeah, Warren Buffett.
[00:34:05] Speaker C: Was it Buffett?
[00:34:06] Speaker B: I think it was.
[00:34:07] Speaker A: Yeah. So that, I mean, there's something true to that. Right. And that's driven by this sense of.
I don't know if that's always driven by envy, but that is driven by a love of money. And again, envy and love of money are hand in hand.
[00:34:19] Speaker C: Yeah, Right. If I just get this debt paid off, I'll be happy.
[00:34:23] Speaker B: Yeah. So, you know, I wanted to bring that up in terms of debt and wealth and. And recognize that the love of money cuts in all kinds of different directions. You don't have to be wealthy to have a love of money.
And so for the person at home saying, again, I don't have much money, in fact, Pastor, I've got a lot of debt, again, that may be a sign you love money.
And so I think that's where I think some errors that I would encourage us to avoid. And I'm going to run through these lightning fast, but four errors that are just oversimplifications when it comes to things thinking about wealth and money and debt. First is the classic prosperity gospel, the prosperity error. If I obey God, he'll bless and life will be good. I'll be healthy, wealthy, wise. That's just not true. Right. I mean, most of the prophets of the Old Testament died in poverty and. Or were killed, and they were some of the most holy men to walk the face of the earth. The apostle Paul, I mean, you can go through the list.
And so poverty may or may not be from the hand of the Lord, depending on your situation. So the reality is the same is true with his blessing and wealth. If I do what's right, God will bless me. That's not always the case.
And so I think the early church struggled with the next oversimplification, which is poverty is the blessed life. Right.
And so this very kind of ascetic or ascetic lifestyle where I'm just going to get rid of everything and get rid of all my worldly possessions and that will somehow make me more holy is crazy talk and not helpful. The reason we don't talk about it much in America is if we're honest, that's just not our struggle.
[00:36:12] Speaker C: Yeah, no.
[00:36:13] Speaker B: No one's going around thinking the poverty, you know, the impoverished life is the blessed life.
[00:36:17] Speaker A: I will actually, though, add to that that I think there was a strain of that running through Christianity.
Still is.
[00:36:23] Speaker B: Oh, it's still there. Versions of Christianity.
[00:36:25] Speaker A: It was there when I was in college, the. Shane Claybourne.
[00:36:29] Speaker C: Yeah, I was going to say.
[00:36:30] Speaker A: Yeah, no, there was an appeal to
[00:36:32] Speaker C: that hat Maker, Jen Hatmaker. She's now apostasized. But Jen Hat Maker.
[00:36:37] Speaker A: Wait, is she about being poor?
[00:36:38] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. She wrote a book called. What is it called? I can't remember. I read it.
[00:36:42] Speaker A: I thought she was about. I don't know.
[00:36:43] Speaker C: Anyway, she doesn't know what she's about. Okay. But anyway, Shane Claiborne.
[00:36:47] Speaker A: Yeah, the Shane Claiborne thing. And I mean, at least Shane lived his principles. I mean, you could give him. He tried. At least he tried. But, yeah, my point is there was some of that.
[00:36:56] Speaker C: Definitely. There was.
[00:36:57] Speaker A: Especially as a young. Like a college student.
And there was an appeal to, like. Yeah, going and like, suffering, you know, and it felt like that was necessarily tied to holiness, basically.
[00:37:09] Speaker B: And so where you'll find that in the Scriptures is, you know, Jesus teaching, after the rich young ruler walks away and he tells the disciples, it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man to get into heaven. And so, you know, the early church grabbed onto that. And certain times over Christian history, people have grabbed onto that and said, okay, being poor is better because I'm somehow. It's gonna be easier for me to get into heaven.
And of course, what was Jesus's actual point in saying that?
[00:37:41] Speaker C: My brain was somewhere else.
[00:37:42] Speaker A: Mine was too.
Great. Thanks for listening. I was thinking of what was next.
[00:37:46] Speaker B: I'm glad you were listening.
[00:37:47] Speaker C: At least I was honest. I mean, I was listening.
[00:37:49] Speaker B: But, yeah, it's listening to listen anyway, at any rate, here. So here we go.
The teaching was that rich people tend to love the things of this world and rely on the wealth and the comfort, the success, the power and the status that that affords them rather than Jesus Christ. And so that's the temptation. And that was the decision the rich young ruler made. He said, you have all these things, but one thing you lack. Give all your money and come and follow me. And the rich young ruler walked away. Sad. Why? Because he loved his money.
He loved those things more than he loved Jesus. That's what it came down to.
So all that to say the prosperity error, the poverty error. I think this is the one for most of us, it's the consumer error. It's the idea that at the end of the day, it is my money and I'm going to spend it how I want to spend it.
[00:38:41] Speaker A: So this was the Rush Limbaugh thing. Yeah. So this is. Remember.
[00:38:45] Speaker B: Yeah, expand on that a little bit.
[00:38:46] Speaker A: Remember his line.
[00:38:46] Speaker C: I always.
[00:38:47] Speaker A: I hated this line.
[00:38:49] Speaker C: Hated it.
[00:38:50] Speaker A: So selfish. And he would say something to the Effect of I want my last check to bounce. Like, his idea, that was how he would talk about it. I don't. Did he have kids even?
[00:39:03] Speaker C: I don't know.
[00:39:04] Speaker A: I don't think. But the whole idea was like, I'm gonna spend it all. And I don't want. Because it was the whole, like, I don't want the government to get any of it. I don't really either after the death tax or, you know, whatever, like inheritance tax and stuff, but that was the idea. I'm gonna spend it all.
[00:39:17] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:39:18] Speaker A: It's for me.
[00:39:19] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:39:19] Speaker A: And it's like, man, your life is not about you.
It should be about the kingdom. And also you should think about your generations beyond you as well. Absolutely. And there's a blessing to building wealth, to actually bless your descendants, your children, grandchildren, great grandchildren, like you could immensely bless them and actually remove some hurdles and obstacles for their lives through that, Potentially.
[00:39:42] Speaker C: Yeah.
A sermon I was listening to recently said, actually, one of the best witnesses we could have as Christians in the consumer era is to stop endlessly upgrading everything we have just to be content. If what you have is doing the job, it's okay.
[00:40:00] Speaker B: Yeah, I think, too, as a part of that, I heard another Christian business leader years ago say, I know I don't have a love of money and yada, yada, yada. But then later on, his teaching of money, he said, it just struck me, he said, I don't want your money and I don't want his money, but I want every cent that is mine. I want every cent that belongs to me. And I thought, that's really interesting because the Bible would say, it's not yours. Right. The Lord owns you and all that you own.
And so for, again, this idea of consumerism, I mean, again, we're all guilty of it, myself included, we just swim in these waters. But I would encourage you to just consider, where am I looking at my money and saying, I want every cent of that. I want it to be mine?
I think that's a dangerous place to live. So the poverty error, the prosperity error, the consumer error, the last one is the shame error, which is, hey, if you have blown it, if you have really screwed up, and most of us have in some way, I mean, if we're honest at some point, we've probably done some things with our money that was pretty stupid.
And if you've gotten yourself into a pile of debt, again, trying to hide that, being ashamed of that, and almost living in kind of this closet of I've got this mountain of debt and no one can know and I've got to figure out how to claw my way out of it.
The Gospel has a good word for you, right? Which is, yes, the results of your sin are still present, but you're free in Jesus Christ and you don't have to be defined by your debt. You don't have to be ultimately thrown in a prison and go to debtors prison the rest of your life. You can still live an abundant Christian life. You just may face some consequences as a part of that, but you're not less than as a Christian. So I think again, for areas that we tend to oversimplify how we relate to money,
[00:42:05] Speaker A: that's good. Ryan, you want to add something?
[00:42:07] Speaker C: Yeah, just it is not, it is a massive misunderstanding of the Christian identity in any way to say that anything is for me.
Yeah, I mean, you read the testament of the early church, they had all things in common, which meant they used everything they had for the glory of God and the good of others in their community.
And I just think about like how many, you know, Christian missionaries doing really good work around the world have to literally, metaphorically get on their hands and knees and beg for money.
And I'm not saying we have to go into abject poverty, but what I am saying is maybe I don't need that specialty coffee every day if that means I can deploy my money for the good of the world in that the gospel goes forth. The fact of the matter is, in the world we live in, for the Gospel to go forth in the hardest and most unreached place in the world requires a lot of money, it requires a lot of resources.
It sounds kind of idealist to me, but I just don't think Christian missionaries need to go unfunded.
American Christians have massive amounts of wealth, massive amounts of wealth generally, even if we're middle class. The fact of the matter is, on a, on a scalable level worldwide, we're rich. We are technically wealthy.
And we have to think about our money as going forth to build the kingdom of God. God uses that prayerful talents otherwise.
And also, just to say the passage that you appealed to Nathan, the command to give 10% is actually nowhere in the New Testament. Nowhere.
It is cheerfully give, which has a lot of implications.
But if you do some study of early church history, you'll find that the average person was giving 30% of all they had to the Kingdom of God. And I realize that this, unfortunately in American life, pastors talking about money has received a significant amount of stigma. And honestly, rightfully so.
A Lot of these televangelist pastors, they're not pastors. These are scammers. Joel Osteen, Benny Hinn, all these crazy people, you know, get up there and tell you, write me a check. And all of a sudden, they're flying these private jets. And so it has a hint of like, oh, man, why are these pastors talking about your money? And I just want to say no one on review staff that's a pastor has any idea what anybody gives in any way. We have no idea. And that's on purpose because we're. All we're trying to do here is, what does God's word have to say about it? Well, I can just honestly say we have no ulterior motive in recording this podcast to get people to give more. Ruby is financially healthy, stable, and sound, and our needs are met just as a whole.
American Christians have just honestly decided to not think about what the Bible has to say about money. And it says a lot.
[00:45:23] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's good. I think to that end, just as the lead pastor of Riverview, I want the people of Riverview to hear me say we have an incredibly generous church here.
And I'm often blown away by just acts of kindness and things that I do get to see that happen in the background.
And I'm grateful for that. Having said that, I think again, we can all grow, myself included, and think more biblically about how we spend our money.
And so to that end, I think an interesting place that would be good for us to go is honestly, what is contentment? Because here's 1 Timothy 6, and I think this is a verse I ponder and roll around in my head a lot.
Paul says this.
He says, but godliness with contentment is great gain, for we brought nothing into the world, and we cannot take anything
[00:46:17] Speaker A: out of the world.
[00:46:17] Speaker B: But if we have food and clothing with these, we will be content. But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, and to many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is the root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves through with many pangs. And then in Philippians 4, we know also, he says he has learned essentially the secret to contentment.
And he knows how to abound and be content. And he knows how to have little and be content. And so what is this contentment? What's the secret to contentment?
Whether you have a ton of money or you have nothing, how do we. How do we pursue that? What's the source?
[00:47:01] Speaker A: That's good. I will.
Excuse me.
[00:47:04] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:47:05] Speaker A: I'll say one route in to an answer on that is recognizing what this is. We started with this, actually, I think recognizing that wealth actually extends far beyond money.
[00:47:19] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:47:22] Speaker A: Man, I could use some more money.
I'm just gonna say it. I could use some more. If there was more, I would find some different things to do with it.
I'll tell you when to stop when you back the dump truck up, right?
[00:47:35] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:47:36] Speaker A: But with what I have, with what I have had, and by God's grace, with what I will have.
The moments, there are some clarifying moments. For example, when I look at my children and realize the gift that they are to me and my wife, I don't actually even care about how much money I have.
Like, we would. Man, I would be thankful for that gift regardless of how many zeros behind the checking account number. You know what I mean? So that's. Honestly, for me, even a recent example of just those moments are just super clarifying for me to go, man, I am wealthy. I'm wealthy, but not because I have a massive bank account, but because I look at what God has given me just in my home, just in my children, man, and what an unbelievable, beautiful blessing. That's one example, right? For those that don't have children or kids aren't at home. Like, man, the passages where Paul talks about the spiritual blessed with all spiritual blessings in Christ. Right? So beginning to look at the wealth that we have in spiritual blessings through Christ.
So that's at least for me, the start of an answer is to go. Contentment means going. Money is one actually really small measurement of wealth. Right.
I'm wealthy in the church family that I have. Honestly, I am immensely thankful for the friends and relationships and love that is within our church community that I'd take that over massive sums of money. Because, man, I know a lot of people, a lot of sums of money that don't have that.
And so that's. Anyways, I'll leave off there because you get my point. But I think that's one way of looking at all the various ways that God gives abundantly that have nothing to do with how much you could write a check off of it.
[00:49:35] Speaker B: That's good. Yeah.
[00:49:36] Speaker A: Anybody writes checks anymore, it's good.
[00:49:40] Speaker C: I think a good sign of contentment is the degree to which my countenance rises or falls in comparison with how much my bank account has or what am I daydreaming about.
What are you resorting to thinking about, is it about man?
How do I use my dominion as a dad to.
To go home tonight and leave my family in worship?
Or is it, oh, man, how do I. Can I check my retirement account three times a day to make sure my score is good, to retire by 67? Although pastors never retire. But you get the point.
Does your joy change based on how much you have or don't have?
[00:50:37] Speaker B: That's good. Yeah. No, I think when I think about contentment again, Philippians 4:13, is the famous the eye black. I can do all things through Christ, who gives me strength. But what Paul is actually saying, the
[00:50:55] Speaker A: eye black, eye contact.
[00:50:56] Speaker B: Yeah. Philippians 4:13.
[00:50:57] Speaker C: Thanks, Tim Tebow.
[00:51:00] Speaker B: What Paul is actually saying, interestingly, is essentially, I can lose and still have joy. I can lose the game and still have strength and still have peace and still have contentment. I've learned the secret and it is Christ.
And so when I think about Christian contentment and wealth, I would tie it to something I think both of you have said in different ways, which is really in my mind. Wealth equates to abundance.
It's abundant living.
And so where am I living abundantly? That's where I'm wealthy. And so that's why your kids are such a blessing. God has blessed you abundantly in your children. That's why your wife or your career, if you enjoy it, whatever those things are, where you look at that and you're like, man, this is good. This is an abundant goodness of God in my life. That's where you're wealthy. And so for some of us, that is our finances. For others of us, it may not be. But here's the secret.
If you don't have the bank account, do you have the spiritual discernment to look around and say, where is God allowing me to live abundantly? And with that, I have much to rejoice over. So, yeah, my countenance is not going to rise and fall with the bank account. And at the end of the day, we all know this, the best is yet to come. The abundant life is just waiting around the corner for every one of us. Infinite, everlasting joy. And so you have reason to be at peace. And that's where Paul finds the strength in 1 Timothy 6. And this guy's not just talking about it, he's living it. If we have food and clothing, we will be content.
The guy is going to die in a prison, get his head cut off, and he's going to die content.
[00:52:52] Speaker C: Yeah, it certainly seems that the most Core ingredient of actually being content is I think about heaven, think about being with Jesus, where the, as Peter tells us, the inheritance is imperishable, unable to be defiled, perfectly sufficient, amazing.
And everything we experience now is a foretaste of that.
And so keeping our gaze there, I mean, this was the puritan hack to actually having a robust view of life and godliness and joy is. I'm going to think about heaven. I want to have my gaze fixed on Jesus.
I think, Nathan, your point about a holistic biblical understanding of wealth is profound in this conversation. Because you can have a lot of money, but if you don't love your wife, you're poor, you can have a lot of money, but if you don't lead your kids in worship because you're pursuing money. See, this is the great irony. A lot of times when you're orienting your life around worldly wealth, your wife suffers, your kids suffer, your church suffers, and those where the real wealth is in terms of the kinds that last in eternity.
Good.
[00:54:06] Speaker B: Yeah. And so, you know, again, the Bible neither condemns it or necessarily commends it as much as it just says, this is a reality. Jesus interestingly says, you know, you'll always have the poor with you. You're never.
We're not going to alleviate world poverty in this life. We're not going to usher in utopia.
But we learn to be content because, again, we know there's a greater treasure that awaits us. We don't have to store up treasure where moth and rust destroy. And I think that's the tension that we live in as Christians. There's a good and wise tension. We live between two worlds. We are called to do good and to work hard and to earn money and to provide for our families and to do all these things and yet not let these things take control.
And that's hard. No one gets it perfectly right.
[00:54:55] Speaker A: No, that's great.
[00:54:56] Speaker C: Anybody ever engaged a Christian resource that might be helpful in this?
[00:55:02] Speaker A: Yeah, the Bible.
[00:55:03] Speaker B: Yeah, the Bible is probably the best one that I think. As if I was just trying to think about in particular, as it relates to generosity or debt or wealth.
So generosity. I mean, you've mentioned this before, before, I think, but the Gospel comes with a house key.
To be generous, to serve, to use your home as a way to further the kingdom.
You know, debt management and how to think about debt.
I mean, I hate to say it, but Dave Ramsey's not terrible on some of that.
I think there are things that he does well, and I think there are things that he doesn't do as well. I do think that his understanding of how Christians should relate to debt is. Is good and healthy.
[00:55:52] Speaker C: Yeah, I agree.
[00:55:53] Speaker B: And so I think that is a win, you know, in terms of career and stewardship of that. Tim Keller's Every Good Endeavor is a great book. And how to Work Hard and Work to the Glory of God is one that is worth your time.
[00:56:13] Speaker C: It's a great book. Yeah.
[00:56:15] Speaker B: So those are just three off top of my head. Any others?
[00:56:17] Speaker C: Yeah, those are all great resources. Just the caveat that I would make with the Dave Ramsey stuff is, you know, he kind of has this idea that, like, only be generous when you arrive at the point where you can possibly be generous.
[00:56:28] Speaker B: Right.
[00:56:29] Speaker C: That's the only thing I disagree with him on. You be generous the whole time in proportion to what you have, not just when you get to the point where you can be generous.
[00:56:35] Speaker B: I think that's why I didn't say I love everything that he says. But, yeah, I do think the debt stuff is good.
[00:56:40] Speaker C: Yeah, I think those are all helpful resources.
David Jeremiah has a great sermon series he does every year called the Grace of Giving, I think is helpful. I don't again, agree with David Jeremiah on a lot of things, but he's great. And on that topic, he has especially some helpful stuff on helping Christians think holistically about our giving.
[00:57:02] Speaker A: Good. I don't read books.
I'm just kidding. I just can't think of any in the particular topic that I could recommend. But those are. Those are good. Cool. Okay. Well, I hope this has been encouraging to folks. I think the admonition to not love wealth, but also to work hard, press in, invest well, you know, like, invest your time and your resources and your money and all those things. Well, grow your influence and dominion and use, leverage the mess out of all those for the glory of God and the kingdom of God. Like, those are great.
Those are great things to leave off with, I think, while not letting the love of money control your life or to let money be your God. Right. Your master.
[00:57:43] Speaker C: Amen.
[00:57:44] Speaker A: So that's our encouragement to you. We hope this has been encouraging to you.
If it has been, share it with somebody, if you know, in your life group or at Riverview that hasn't tuned into this yet. But we appreciate the many encouraging words we've gotten from folks about this too, because we really, we mean for this to just be a conversation that gets you thinking and that drives you into God's word and that equips you to live the Christian life well. So until next time. Further up and further in. I'll see you soon.
[00:58:38] Speaker C: Jesus.
Sa.
Sam.
