Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: What does the way you dress say about your faith? Does it say anything at all? Does it have to? For generations, Christians have debated that question.
Many of us have had grandparents, perhaps, that told us that anything less than a shirt and tie for men or a dress for women was inappropriate for church.
But now the pendulum actually seems to have swung in the opposite direction. Whether we're at the gym or the swimming pool or the church or somewhere else, Christians often dress indistinguishably from the culture around us, sometimes almost wearing the exact same outfit to all three of those places.
So where is the line?
Is a bikini? Immodest leggings? Yoga pants?
Should Christians dress differently for church than they do elsewhere? Does the Bible even give us enough information to answer those questions?
Our goal in this episode actually is not to give you a Christian dress code, but to encourage each of us to take a moment to consider how we dress and why.
Welcome to Word and Flesh, a podcast from the elders of Riverview Baptist Church. For Riverview Baptist Church. We're so glad you've joined us.
This is going to be a great conversation and something that we've all been talking about quite a bit as we prepared for it. And I'll introduce our elders in the room. We have a new elder in the room. Not a new elder, a new to the room elder in the room today. So I'll go around. I'm Nathan Bechtel, one of the elders at Riverview Baptist Church, the newest of elders, actually, in this room on my right is Michael Bean.
[00:01:46] Speaker B: Yep. Glad to be here.
[00:01:47] Speaker A: Ryan Anderson.
[00:01:49] Speaker C: Hello. Hello.
[00:01:50] Speaker A: Ryan has the mic without the pop filter today. Because I only bought three pop filters. I'm gonna adjust your mic a little bit. You gotta raise that up a little bit. Sorry about.
So we got Ryan the.
If so if you hear especially loud plosives, then that'll be Ryan without the pop filter. Sorry about that, bro. But it's because we introduced a fourth mic today and I didn't have a fourth pop filter because we have Elder Scott Bechtold. Same last name as me. That's not a coincidence. That would be a crazy coincidence. Actually. Scott is my uncle and is another one of the elders here at Riverview. Welcome to the podcast.
[00:02:24] Speaker D: Good morning.
[00:02:25] Speaker A: Good morning. Good to be with you. What is biblical modesty?
I think that the value of this conversation is literally a good chunk of it is just having the conversation.
Because my hope is that we would all just consider what the answer to that question is. In other words, I think that a lot of times we don't really even consider it. I think a lot of Christians don't consider it. And as we said, there in the cold open, we are accustomed to some kind of historical context of there being a dress code for things and places.
Actually, I think we'll get into the fact that there still is a dress code for things and places.
So what are we to make of that? What's the spirit behind a dress code or behind dressing a certain way? Why would you dress a certain way in one place and not another place? And then what should the way that we present ourselves say about us, about our faith, about our Lord?
[00:03:25] Speaker C: Right.
[00:03:26] Speaker A: So anyways, I think that's the value of having this conversation. Totally recognizing that I'm actually okay if everybody lands in slightly different places on this.
I'm probably not okay if everybody lands in dramatically different places, honestly, on this. But this episode does not come with the, you know, the tape measure to measure how long the, you know, the skirt is. Although I'm pretty sure at school.
I think they had that at my school for the dress code. I think that actually was a thing, too. Yeah. So it's funny because there. That was like.
That was real, and that was. I mean, nobody liked it, but it actually did happen. Scott, you grew up earlier than we did.
[00:04:05] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:04:05] Speaker A: I mean, there were dress codes.
[00:04:06] Speaker D: There were dress codes and there were changes, and they were disputed.
Plenty of. Plenty of pushback.
[00:04:16] Speaker A: But you mean as dress codes were, like, loosened over the years?
[00:04:19] Speaker D: Well, as they changed or when, to be frank with you, originally, I don't recall a particular dress code in school, but because society changed and we became more casual, then dress at school became more casual, and some of it a little bit more. More casual than the administration, the teachers, and the parents were comfortable with. And so there were changes and there was pushback.
[00:04:52] Speaker A: Thank you for joining us for this episode of Word and Flesh. I think that's all we need to say, actually. Just kidding. But that's a great. That's a great insight. That culture, like, societal change, led that changing of how people presented themselves. We were at Dairy. I was at Dairy Queen with my kids the other day, and we were in Texas. We were traveling. And on the wall, they have pictures from, like, antiquity, you know, the 1950s. No offense. And I pointed the. One of the photos of, like, a Dairy Queen in Hot Springs, Arkansas, or something out to my kids, and I was like, what do you notice about that photo?
Everyone was presentable, and this was just like a normal day.
It wasn't like it was after prom or Something, everyone was presentable, everyone looked great.
I was like, wow, that's a radicalizing photo right there. That will make you go, something has changed, and I don't know that I like it.
So anyways, good point, though, about culture change kind of happening and then not everybody liking it either direction.
[00:05:57] Speaker D: That's true.
[00:05:59] Speaker A: So let's go to look at a few scripture passages that can anchor us in this conversation, because you could do this whole conversation purely speculatively or just outside of any scriptural guidance. Now, again, we're not going to find a scriptural passage that says specific metrics of clothing other than some certain things about priests, vestments. But beyond that, we're not going to find that. But I think we do find guidance in Scripture about how we adorn ourselves, what that says about God and us. So I don't know, Ryan or Michael, you guys want to, you have your Bibles open at least? You want to take us to some passages that ought to anchor us in this discussion?
[00:06:38] Speaker B: Yeah, we can do that for sure. Before I read, I would just say too, that one of the reasons I think we wanted to do this episode is recognizing that for many of us, we are just taking our cues from the culture. And that frankly, that's just a terrible position to operate from in general as a Christian, that when we're just taking our cues from the culture, what that means is our opinions, our standards could change at any moment. And so what's culturally acceptable here in America is vastly different than what's acceptable in Japan or somewhere in Asia. And what's culturally acceptable there looks very different than somewhere in Africa. And so, yeah, how do we as Christians think about this? I think that's one of the reasons the Bible doesn't give just these really explicit standards, because they would be a Western standard or an Eastern standard or something else. And so here's a couple of verses. Ryan, what do you have open?
[00:07:37] Speaker C: Not what you have open.
[00:07:38] Speaker B: Okay, that's what I wanted to make sure.
So first off, 1 Timothy 2, 9, 10 says this likewise, also, that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, excuse me, with modesty and self control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness with good works.
And so there's some instruction there. And interestingly, the instruction right before that is that men in every place would lift holy hands without anger and quarreling. And so I think there's some instruction even there about what modesty looks like.
And Paul does address some outward standards but he also addresses the heart, that there's a good works that women are called to. That there's a holy hands and a lack of quarreling that we're called to as well.
[00:08:33] Speaker C: Can you read the phrase about something about women who claim godliness again?
[00:08:39] Speaker B: Yeah. It says not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness with good works.
[00:08:48] Speaker C: Yeah. Which is to say, on the most basic level, that women who profess godliness will at least look different.
[00:08:54] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:08:56] Speaker C: I never caught that from that.
[00:08:57] Speaker B: Yeah. And that there is a. I think there's an emphasis on behave behavior with good works.
[00:09:04] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:09:05] Speaker C: Yeah. I'm going to read a similar passage, Titus, chapter two.
Women likewise are to be reverent in behavior. Reverend Behavior. Very similar. Greek term for modesty.
Not slanderers or slaves to much wine.
They are to teach what is good, and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, to be self controlled, pure, working at home, kind and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.
Modesty is a similar kind of term for self control, pure proper behavior. It has to do with clothing, for sure, but it has also to do with the greater reality of temperance and self control in the life of not just women, but men and women as well.
[00:09:56] Speaker B: So I'm going to wade us into a question here that I think is worth pondering. So the two texts we just read are both directed towards women.
First, Peter 3, interestingly, also directed towards women. Do not let your adorning be external. The braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry or the clothing you wear. But let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious. This is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves by submitting to their own husbands.
So why in all three texts does modesty address women?
[00:10:36] Speaker C: I gotta be careful here, but because women are more beautiful than men.
Is that a fair answer?
[00:10:43] Speaker A: I mean, nobody's arguing.
[00:10:44] Speaker C: It's true, Right? Everybody's just afraid to say it.
[00:10:48] Speaker A: I'm not afraid to say it. You just said it first.
[00:10:49] Speaker C: Okay, good.
[00:10:51] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think also because.
And I actually don't think that this is a completely bad tendency, but I think women tend to want to adorn themselves more than men do. I'm going to qualify that by saying men also can be, you know, vain peacocks. Right. For sure. Right. But women like it gives examples of braided hair and gold. And I don't. My takeaway from this passage is not no longer braiding your hair. That's not, that's definitely. That's not my takeaway from that. I think, like, you're not reading it well, if that's your takeaway, it's like, oh, can't braid your hair anymore.
But I think the examples that Paul gives is trying to say, is trying to speak to the heart of something I think that women generally struggle with, which is identifying myself with how my outward appearance is and trying to alter my outward appearance without altering the inward. Right. In other words, like make the outward look a certain way. Because I think that's the thing that actually matters.
And we are actually saying it matters, but in an inverse way. Right. In other words, putting on kind of a presentation that actually is a false presentation for what's in the heart. Now, maybe I spoke too far in that, but that's kind of why I think he's addressing women especially. Can I. I do think we're going to get to men, by the way.
[00:12:12] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:12:13] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:13] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:12:13] Speaker C: Can I make a more sophisticated biblical theology answer than I just did?
[00:12:16] Speaker B: Please do.
[00:12:17] Speaker C: Okay.
Consider the fall's effect on women. I don't know if this is where you're going, but generally for men, the falls effect are selfish passivity, selfish aggression, Genesis 3, candy, all that stuff. For women, the effects of the fall are generally insecurity and comparison.
And downstream of that is the temptation to bring attention or to pursue security in that attention. And so I think the New Testament speaks more explicitly to women because the fact on this matter likely because women just generally care what people think more than men.
[00:13:03] Speaker A: They're more prone to seek it that way.
[00:13:04] Speaker D: That's true. But I. And I think part of this is also women do want to be attractive to men, to their husbands, to others. They want to be attractive. And in these cases, there was a lot of don't do this or that, because I think the clothing in the time of the New Testament was written, most people may only have two sets of clothes if they were fortunate. And so there wasn't a lot of variation on what they could wear. So someone may put gold on, they may have had pearls, whatever. But this turned out to be quite a distraction in the church, the early church particularly, because some were up and out and some were down and out, and luckily to have something to put on them to keep warm because of their status. So Paul was trying to tell the people, not just the women, but to all people, respect one another in what you wear. Don't try to stand out and be flashy.
So today to stand out may not be gold or pearls.
[00:14:18] Speaker B: It could be maybe something very different.
[00:14:21] Speaker D: Maybe something quite different.
[00:14:22] Speaker C: Thank you for the early church history lesson. Bech told. That was great.
[00:14:26] Speaker B: That's excellent.
I think you guys are right.
I think there's several variables. I think what you guys have talked about, that there is an insecurity and a comparison game like kind of behavior that women tend to struggle with. Not to say that men don't at all, but I think that's real. I think another thing that just is real. And we're going to get into this more as the episode goes on.
It's interesting. Notice this. So those men address women directly. Watch what Jesus does right here. He says in the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 5:27, 28, you've heard that it was said you should not commit adultery. But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
And so the reality is, from the fall, from the beginning, men have had a problem with lust. It's just the reality. Men have had a struggle not to say again, that women never struggle with sexual sin. But men tend to struggle with sexual sin more than women. And because of that, there has been a pressure on women to dress in ways that cause men to notice them sexually.
And whether that can be a power play or an attention seeking effort or whatever the case may be, that is not new. It is ancient. It is as old as time itself. And so just to see that, know again, what we're wrestling with as Christians today is not new. There's nothing new under the sun. These things have been happening since sin entered the world.
[00:16:03] Speaker A: I'll add too, because, man, there's always like a. I think there's always like a caveat I want to give whenever we talk about a lot of these things.
[00:16:10] Speaker B: Oh yeah.
[00:16:10] Speaker A: And one of them is it's a good thing for a wife to want to be attractive to her husband.
[00:16:15] Speaker D: Right.
[00:16:15] Speaker A: The Bible celebrates that very overtly. Right. So again, far be it from me or anybody in this room to say, you know, the goal of a Christian woman should be to look as sort of like plain and unattractive as they possibly can or something. My goodness. Right. That's not at all the point. Which I think that clarification then makes us go, okay, well, you know, then how do I create a framework a little bit for knowing if a Thing knowing if the way I'm presenting myself is in line with. By the way, this is going to go to men and women. Yes, we've been talking about women in this specific moment, but we're about to expand it, I think. How do I know that it's in line with biblical guidelines for modesty? What's a framework? What are some questions I can ask when I am shopping or dressing or whatever, thinking about how I present myself?
That I can go, oh no, that wouldn't be. Or yeah, that would be.
[00:17:12] Speaker B: Before we get to the framework, I just want to clarify. So we read some of the scriptures about biblical modesty. I think some of the key components, like if you go back and you pay attention to those texts, self control and propriety, that's a part of modesty.
Humility, and not just attention seeking is a part of biblical modesty.
Sexual restraint and consideration for others, again, a part of biblical modesty and freedom from, you know, vanity, where, hey, I need these things. I need to be again, adorned outwardly, to feel good about myself, to be
[00:17:51] Speaker A: in a certain way.
[00:17:52] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. All of those things are, I think, the factors or the characteristics of biblical modesty. So that self control, that humility, all those things I think are what's really at stake. And that's where I do think you can start to say this does cross, you know, both into men and women in terms of application.
[00:18:14] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:18:14] Speaker B: So with that clarification.
[00:18:16] Speaker C: Wait, wait. Can I add a comment?
[00:18:18] Speaker B: Go for it.
[00:18:18] Speaker C: Yeah.
Especially on the consideration for others.
I've taught publicly on modesty in the past and generally the pushback and privately I've had conversations with people and the pushback is generally from women. Well, that's their problem.
[00:18:34] Speaker A: Right.
[00:18:35] Speaker C: That's the man's problem.
[00:18:36] Speaker A: Get over it.
[00:18:37] Speaker C: And the other way around. Right.
And I would just say that is fundamentally not a Christian thought.
Christians are bought by the blood of Jesus not to their own individual faith, but into a corporate people, which by definition means that everything I think, say, do or where, or add any action or verb after that is done. Of course, in light of my own personal standing before God, but also with the corporate people of God in mind. How do I love my neighbor? Well, with what I wear. How do I love my neighbor? Well, with my self restraint. How do I love my neighbor? Well, with self control. This is not just a me issue, this is a people of God issue. And I don't want to be a distraction. And ladies, you don't want to be a distraction. And so we take the lie of, well, that's somebody else's problem. That is not Christian at all in the slightest.
[00:19:34] Speaker A: Right. And it's not to absolve men of responsibility for their own thoughts. But it's. That's a. Yeah, I think that's great. Couching it in terms of neighbor love is the right way to think about it. So. Good. Okay. So we were going to the framework there. Unless Scott had anything to add. Okay.
So we had this threefold kind of framework, a way that you could look at how you present yourself. A grid to filter this through. Right.
[00:20:01] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:20:02] Speaker A: One of them is intent. In other words, what am I trying to communicate with, how I'm presenting myself right now, what I'm putting on.
[00:20:08] Speaker B: And I think just right away, if your intent in any way is look at me, that is the subtle sign of immodesty. Like if you're saying, I'm putting this on and what I want is attention to be noticed. Yeah. And really, anyway, whether that's a wealth and status scenario or sexual attraction scenario, whatever, that inclination to say, I'm going to use my clothing to get the attention of other people.
I think you're already off base.
[00:20:45] Speaker A: Okay, so what would be a positive thing to communicate? Because we gave sort of like a negative. Don't. You shouldn't communicate this before we get to the next part of our threefold framework here. What would be a thing you want to communicate through your dress?
[00:20:57] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:20:58] Speaker C: I would say you want to be presentable and pursue excellence in how you present yourself.
Good, virtuous, beautiful stuff. But there's a way to do that without drawing unnecessary, unwelcomed attention.
[00:21:14] Speaker A: Like good things are. I mean, good and beautiful. Have a really close relationship.
[00:21:19] Speaker C: Hey, don't wear the T shirt to the job interview.
[00:21:21] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. Because it's hilarious. There are some of them that we literally all know and all agree with, except for a handful of outliers. And they kind of deal with their own consequences. Right. But, you know, you could think of extreme examples. A funeral, for example, or something. There's a variety of dress, you know, but everybody knows.
[00:21:40] Speaker C: But even that has changed dramatically.
[00:21:41] Speaker A: I know. In, like, short time.
[00:21:42] Speaker C: I know he could attest to that
[00:21:43] Speaker A: more than I could. Yeah.
[00:21:45] Speaker C: What did. What were you required to wear to a funeral 30, 40 years ago?
[00:21:48] Speaker D: Well, you wore a black tie, white shirt, a dark black or navy blue
[00:21:53] Speaker C: coat, and no questions asked.
[00:21:56] Speaker D: Black shoes. Yeah. Yeah, that's right.
[00:21:58] Speaker A: Yeah. At least now generally people know they should wear a.
[00:22:02] Speaker C: Guess generally wear a teacher.
[00:22:04] Speaker A: But I mean, anyways, the point my Point simply is we still do kind of know that there's a dress code to places. Right. We just don't like it applied in certain ways in certain places. So intent was one. What am I trying to communicate?
[00:22:17] Speaker B: I think the positive side that I'm just going to borrow from John Piper, Undistracting excellence.
There is a way to dress excellently, to present yourself well, but the purpose of it is not attention seeking. And so, hey, again, my life is about God, it's not about me. And so I'm going to dress appropriately, I'm going to dress well, I'm going to put my best foot forward. But at the end of the day, it's not meant to draw attention to myself. It's meant to help other people see Christ in me. And so I think that undistracting excellence is helpful for me.
[00:22:53] Speaker C: So you're telling me you're not going to wear skinny jeans to teach this? Well, I'm preaching. But tell me I can't wear skinny jeans this Sunday.
[00:23:01] Speaker A: I don't want you to wear skinny jeans.
[00:23:02] Speaker B: I would strongly advise against.
[00:23:03] Speaker C: I don't own a pair of. But to my great regret, I did use stone. A paragraph. Yeah.
[00:23:09] Speaker A: Next in our kind of questions to ask is effect. So what does my appearance reasonably communicate?
I think that's actually kind of a two part question. What does it communicate and what is the effect of it? Maybe that's the same thing. But you could say, what do I mean for it to communicate. Right. Sometimes does it communicate?
[00:23:28] Speaker D: We're trying to communicate. I am somebody. Look at me.
Yep.
And that's what Paul was trying to warn against.
We want to be somebody because of good works of love, compassion and service, not because of what we put on.
Yeah.
[00:23:49] Speaker C: I think the difference between intent is what am I personally trying to communicate? And effect is what is everybody else going to generally think about what I'm wearing?
[00:23:58] Speaker A: Good distinction.
[00:23:58] Speaker C: And again, that, that is a generally. In the age that we're growing up in, nobody.
There's a lot of people who just don't even think to ask that question. It's just individual. I want to wear this. Get over it. I'm fine. So you do you, you be you, you, you be a showgirl. Thank you, Taylor Swift.
Instead of what. What does. What does this communicate to others? And especially I would say if you're a Christian, the answer is for everybody. But it is more directed is man. How are the people of God going to interpret what I'm wearing?
[00:24:31] Speaker A: That's great because you're right to Distinguish that we can intend one thing or frankly, not even just dress without considering anything. But the effect can be very different from even if there was an intent.
And again, we have said we're not going to give a dress code in this, specifically in this episode. But the. That is the mercy of a dress code. Right. Because it helps you to not have to consider that very much. Right. It's like, this is what you will wear.
And I'm not saying you should just be thoughtless about it, but you know what I mean, that was the goal of a dress code. In the same way that offense is a mercy to a child. Right. It's like, hey, do this, but you're not going over that place because that's not gonna be helpful. We've already decided that's not helpful. That's not gonna be useful. So anyways, it's just funny because with again, especially latter half of 20th century and 21st century hyper individualism, you aren't going to tell me what I can and can't wear. And it's like, you know, maybe it's actually a kindness in certain situations to go, this is just what you wear to this.
[00:25:37] Speaker C: Right.
[00:25:38] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:25:38] Speaker A: So anyways. But yes, intent can actually be different from effect. So we should ask, what is the effect of me wearing this? And again, that at least we don't have to get into all of them. But that leads to a whole other set of questions about, well, how would I know what the effect is?
[00:25:51] Speaker C: Right. That's what I was thinking is like for some people so downstream of a culture of immodesty, it's like what they feel that is fine to communicate. The general population, mature Christians is on the entirely other side of that spectrum.
[00:26:06] Speaker A: Exactly. Which is, I think, why we're going to get into some more specifics shortly, because honestly, just want to be helpful.
[00:26:11] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. I think the other thing I'll say too is I think there's a warning already in this, which is.
And we're going to get into this later in the episode as well, but just this can turn in from discernment to judgmentalism very quickly.
And so there's a lot of Christians that can try to find their righteousness in how they're dressing or not dressing. And that's actually, interestingly, a failure to be modest in and of itself because you lack humility. And so.
Yeah, I just think there's a lot of. There's a reason this one's so tricky.
[00:26:46] Speaker C: Yeah, right. I mean, the danger is binding consciences where scripture doesn't bind them.
And so we're not going to do that, but what we are going to do is like, we at least have to think about this.
[00:26:56] Speaker B: Right?
[00:26:57] Speaker A: Yeah. So the first one was intent.
What am I trying to communicate? Second one is effect. What is my appearance? What does it communicate versus what am I trying to communicate? Because those might be different.
[00:27:07] Speaker D: Right.
[00:27:08] Speaker A: And third is simply thoughtfulness. Have I thought about this as a Christian?
Have I thought about Christian attire? Like, what would a Christian do versus could it be different from what the culture is doing? Just approach this thoughtfully as a Christian.
[00:27:23] Speaker B: And I would say that right there is why we're having the episode like that. Because again, we tend to just take our cues from the culture in far too many places. But I think especially with duress, it's almost just a non factor in terms of careful thought for a lot of Christians. And so we were saying, hey, let's reconsider that.
[00:27:45] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:27:46] Speaker C: I'd like to hear from Michael and Scott on how you think about what you wear to church on Sundays.
What's your thought process about that?
You're standing in front of everybody. Scott's the best dressed man. I know. I'd like to hear the thought process.
[00:28:00] Speaker A: Scott's the only person at Riverview that wears a hat. Only man, actually. Only person that wears a hat.
[00:28:07] Speaker C: Unless it's Easter Sunday. But every other Sunday, Scott's the only one.
[00:28:10] Speaker A: The hat rack remains.
[00:28:13] Speaker C: Yep.
[00:28:13] Speaker A: He put it back up for one man, for himself, but, you know, he's just ahead.
[00:28:18] Speaker C: Okay, answer the question.
[00:28:19] Speaker A: Go ahead.
[00:28:19] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:28:20] Speaker B: So for me, again, actually, my thought process is undistracting excellence. And so I wear, you know, oftentimes just the coat and a collared shirt, no tie, and jeans. And in part because I really believe that attire allows me to be on the more in terms of excellent side, be very presentable, make sure that there's an element of looking professional and thoughtful. But the other side is the jeans. Hopefully communicate. This is a place where we're not so stuck on every I dotted every T crossed. You got to have the tie, you got to have the coat. You got to have everything just right or you're not going to fit in. At Riverview, I don't want people to feel that. I grew up in the deep south as a youth pastor, we had no tie. July, every other month of the year, every other time the doors were open, you were expected. Coat, tie and khaki slacks were the bare minimum.
And.
And it was alienating us in some ways from the community because we were A low income area in south Mississippi. And the reality is a lot of people didn't wear or have that kind of clothing a lot.
And so that was something that I became sensitive to even early on in my career. I want to be able to dress in a way that honors the Lord and does demonstrate that he is good and right, but then also dress in such a way that it's not going to just totally alienate me from the people I'm trying to minister to.
[00:29:57] Speaker D: Good. And I will say I dress up for church probably as much as anything because that's the way I grew up, that's the way my parents taught me.
So tradition.
But sometimes I just enjoy putting a hat on. It's just kind of fun. Not that it's gives me any status, but it's just kind of fun. But it also keeps the rain off my hearing aids, so that is handy. When we get rain.
Now, I like to wear also a tie because I find that we have guests that are sometimes very nicely dressed and I don't want them to feel overdressed. And I have seen sometimes guests, this is the first time they come in our doors and they may have a coat and tie on. And I have found that it's nice if I can go greet them. How are you doing? It's good to see you. My name's Scott.
Do you live here? These kind of questions, but at least I get to recognize them. And they see they are not the only person with a coat on.
Now sometimes, I'll be honest, I don't mind standing out because now and then I tell somebody, I've talked to them on the phone and I said, I haven't had a chance to meet you
[00:31:21] Speaker C: yet and I'm the only guy who wears a tie.
[00:31:24] Speaker D: So look for the guy with the tie and they can find me. But that's the only reason I want. I actually struggle sometimes with this thought is I don't want to have the appearance that I'm dressing better than you. That's not my idea. I'm trying not, you know, I'm not judging other people. Yes, there are some things that people might wear to church infrequently that I think shouldn't have been worn to church this morning.
But my thoughts are, you know, I want to not present myself as I'm the guy that's dressed up and the rest of you are just not up to par. No, that's not the case. I actually feel like when I dress up this is something special. This is something I'm Honoring my parents, but I'm also honoring God. Not that he demanded us to work a coat or a tie, but Sunday morning is kind of a special time to me. And just getting into my Sunday best means I'm getting ready to go to church and worship with my friends and my family.
[00:32:38] Speaker A: It's great.
[00:32:38] Speaker C: Yeah. I think it's just important to consider in this conversation that, and we've talked about on here before, but in the, in the conversations of, of cultural realities, the. The pendulum always swings, almost never lands in the middle. It used to be to Michael's point and to Scott's upbringing that if you go to church, you're wearing a full suit and tie, especially in the deep South. But I can remember comments, you know, church, I grew up when I would wear a certain time going about time you thought about dressing up for church. It's like, okay, the pendulum now is swinging to the very other side, which is to say we don't think about it at all.
And Christians need to land in the wives middle here.
[00:33:20] Speaker A: An objection will be, are you objecting me?
[00:33:24] Speaker C: Are you playing devil savage?
[00:33:26] Speaker A: No. Devil's advocate. A little bit. An objection will be, I am told to come to the Lord as I am, and then he receives me as I am, which is true.
He calls you to change. I mean, we're talking spiritually.
And so it's like, well, if the Lord accepts me, then why do you say I gotta put a collar on or wear a certain dress or whatever? Why do I have to do something to my outward appearance?
The Bible says man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart. So why can't you just be more like the Lord and not worry about what I'm wearing?
I mean, honestly, I feel like I've heard some version of that put up very sincerely by sincerely Christian folks saying it doesn't matter what you wear.
[00:34:19] Speaker B: Yeah. So I think first of all, I would say to that response, number one, I. I would say your heart does matter more.
I would much rather a person who is genuinely saved doesn't understand yet what modesty even is. But they're a brand new baby Christian and they walk through the door and their heart's on fire for Jesus. Bring that to Riverview all day, every day.
However, the idea is this sanctification should happen. And our actions and behaviors demonstrate oftentimes what is happening in our hearts. There is a fruit that we bear in our lives. And so immediately a brand new Christian.
That's where again, as God's people, we need to show A lot of grace. We need to not be walking around and saying, hey, you need to dress like me, walk like me, talk like me, but to demonstrate kindness, to show patience, and to say, yeah, people that are new in the faith, they can learn these things by God's grace. And the hope would be they're not conforming to a people in terms of cultural expectation.
The hope would be Romans 12:2.
Do not be conformed to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that there is a renewal that that's happening in that person. And that renewal eventually begins to affect the music they listen to, the way they speak and talk, the way they dress, the food they do and don't eat and drink. And all of those things begin to come online because of the transformation that's happening.
[00:36:04] Speaker A: Good.
[00:36:04] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:36:05] Speaker A: Ryan, do you want to add something better? Scott?
[00:36:07] Speaker D: No, I don't think so.
Very well said.
[00:36:11] Speaker A: Well said.
All right, so going back to the idea that this is not just a women's issue, again, we read some scriptures that specifically talk to women about this. There are scriptures that talk to men about men's. Some of their more specific struggles as well. But modesty does apply. Even as we've been talking right now, it applies more broadly. It's not just for one of the sexes. Right. It's for both.
With men, I think there's some sort of extreme, obvious applications where we would talk about modesty in terms of. With women, in terms of something being revealing or really tight fitting.
It accentuates what should not be accentuated. Right. Or it reveals what is meant to be covered. And we're going to talk about the point of covering a little bit, I think. But men's clothing could do that too, right? I mean, there could be men's clothing that accentuate a physique that, again, going back to our threefold framework, it's like the intent of that was to make you look ridiculously jacked.
[00:37:17] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:37:17] Speaker A: By the way, congratulations on being ridiculously jacked. But what you wore there was to draw attention, eyes, whatever, to that fact. Yeah. And I do see what I'm saying.
[00:37:29] Speaker B: I see that at the gym for men, that is a place where guys are walking around and it's obvious that they're there to flex. They're there to show people just how built they are. And that is a pride issue.
[00:37:46] Speaker A: This is why we should have men's gyms and women's gyms segregated. But that's a different topic. Yeah. I don't know that it would Actually
[00:37:52] Speaker B: get rid of that.
[00:37:53] Speaker A: It wouldn't get rid of that male
[00:37:54] Speaker B: competition, the male ego.
[00:37:55] Speaker A: But I'm going to throw. Yeah, it would still be an improvement.
[00:37:58] Speaker C: I'm not opposed.
[00:37:59] Speaker B: Yeah. I think the. The reality is, you know, as you talk about that for men, you know, just considering I. I see men struggling with this in two major ways. One is, yes, to show off and demonstrate physical power.
I think the other way I see men struggle with it is like, financial power, that, hey, I can afford this watch.
I can afford this suit.
And, yeah, I mean, as a businessman, Nathan, you're in that world.
How do you try to think about that?
[00:38:36] Speaker A: Well, you know, I was about to buy my seventh Rolex the other day, and I thought, you know, six is enough, actually. No, I kid.
But I think this actually goes back to our previous episode on Money, where we wrestled with this idea of it's not wrong to have money, and it's also not wrong to spend money.
And I would even go and say, it's not wrong to spend money on things that are good and beautiful. Right. I mean, that's all stuff that we kind of unpack together in that conversation.
So then I go, okay, well, what's the heart? Am I spending on something that's flashy, Intentionally flashy? Is it wrong to have a nice car or a new car? I'm not saying that it is wrong to have those things right. Is it?
But the question should be, okay, what am I trying to project or display by doing this? Am I trying to direct people's thoughts and attention onto my own greatness and.
Or am I trying to actually display God's goodness?
Man, that's a loaded thing that we could spend a while trying to unpack. But at least that's a question I would say to ask, right? Because you do. Like, it is good to dress appropriately for whatever the occasion is. And if the occasion is an important business situation or something, and, you know, you're going to be in the room with people that are all wearing, like, suits that are not gotten off the sale rack at Kohl's, you actually are diminishing yourself from a business standpoint to not. You know what I mean? You got to know, like, what pond you're swimming in. And so, like, there's a wisdom there, too. Right. I would say that that is not like, dressing for the occasion and for what your career requires and all that is not inherently being immodest. But if your career requires you to be flamboyantly about your own appearance, then I would say Consider a career change.
[00:40:36] Speaker D: Right.
[00:40:37] Speaker A: If your career requires you to be hanging out of your clothes as a woman, you're in the wrong career.
So anyways, those. And again, there's male applications there too, but that's kind of where I tend to go.
[00:40:48] Speaker B: So that leads us to. So I think the power issue is modesty. Issue, issue for men. I think the sexual issue. And this is. We talked about getting into this, where we're going to call women to consider how they dress.
I don't think that that exempts men, obviously from bearing the responsibility for where their eyes go.
[00:41:10] Speaker A: Well, no way. Yeah.
[00:41:11] Speaker B: That men bear. When it comes to this whole issue of modesty and relating to women, men are responsible for their hearts. They are responsible for their eyes. They are responsible and will be held accountable before holy God. There's not an excuse, even if a woman is dressed immodestly, that does not excuse you or exempt you from battling against lust.
[00:41:37] Speaker C: Yeah. If I could just make an encouragement to men in this area of modesty.
And it's for all of us, that man, we just need to be secure in the Lord and know that at the end of the day, what Michael thinks of my shirt is important to the extent that it's modest or not, but it's not important to the extent that he thinks it's relatively nice or flashy or lame.
[00:42:11] Speaker B: And for the record, you've insulted my shirts far more than I have yours.
[00:42:15] Speaker C: This is true.
But I had fair critiques.
I don't remember the shirts, but it was probably a cowboy shirt, which. I tell you, Michael likes plaid.
[00:42:25] Speaker A: I do.
[00:42:26] Speaker B: I wear a lot of plaid.
[00:42:27] Speaker C: I wear a lot of checkered. There you go. Okay. What was I saying? Security, you know, and with money, with your physique, with. With what you own, with what you wear, at the end of the day, I'm not going to stand before brother Scott and give an account for.
For what I've done or who I am or what I own or how I expend my things or my level of self control. Now, how I do those things affects my brother Scott, because he's a member of the church that I attended, affects the community of God. But at the end of the day, I'm going to stand before the Lord and so what I wear matters. How I spend my money matters. And by the way, he has bought me with his precious blood. He has called me righteous, he's adopted me as a son.
And I have nothing to prove if those things are true.
And I feel like that's a great Antidote to trying to prove yourself, which is generally when immodest. Being immodest as a man is downstream of trying to prove yourself. By the way, young brothers, good, mature men aren't impressed by your shirtless pictures on social media.
Those are stupid, immature, and just uncomfortable.
And they want. They want to prove something, right? And it's like, man, I encourage you, be secure in the Lord. If you're his child, he's bought you.
[00:43:49] Speaker B: Yeah, well, and I think most of those are actually for women. I could be wrong, but I think most guys are posting those not for other men, but for other. Yeah, for women. And so that's sexual immodesty on the man's part.
And so, yeah, I think the last piece that I think I would just get at for men is the inverse of some of what we're saying.
So there's the power side, there's the sexual immodesty side, but then there's the opposite of those things, which I would just call like the slothfulness side.
[00:44:22] Speaker A: Slovenly.
[00:44:22] Speaker B: Yes. And that's where I see a lot of men, and to be fair, younger men struggling today, that young men show up in places and it's obvious they're unkempt. They have not thought carefully about their hair, their clothing.
They're just there. And I think that is not honoring God with your body.
And so I would love to hear some thoughts on that. I've got more, but what do you guys think about.
[00:44:49] Speaker D: Well, I've got something from Romans here that Paul was telling the people in chapter 13. He says, the night is nearly over, the day is almost here.
So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. And then in verse 14, he says, rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh.
So the time is short.
Even as a young person. As a young person, time doesn't mean much except I just got to be home in time to eat, you know? But time is short. And he tells us here to put on the Lord Jesus Christ. So there's things we should put on, and that's got something to do. A lot to do with what we talked about, considering. What are we going to wear? How does it communicate to someone else? Are we trying to communicate something? And what he's saying here, we want to communicate love and concern and humbleness.
[00:45:55] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm thinking of the passage. I can't remember the reference, and I honestly don't remember most of the verse. But whatever is true, whatever is lovely.
[00:46:03] Speaker B: Philippians 4.
[00:46:04] Speaker C: Thank you.
Think on these things.
Pursue these things as a Christian and young brother.
Pursue what is noble, what is lovely, what is good, what is virtuous, what is acceptable, what is pleasing in God's sight.
And I mean, I remember it's more of a business principle than is anything else. But I mean, I always remember brothers ahead of me saying, you know, dress for the job you want, not the one you got. And what they're saying is, be acceptable, be presentable, work hard to not look lazy.
[00:46:37] Speaker A: Yeah. It's like, it's good to be aspirational. Right. Dress for what you are aiming for.
And again, that goes back to the questions we've been asking, which is, what are you aiming for exactly, with the way that you dress?
[00:46:49] Speaker B: Well, And I think that's just it. So when I see young men that are not well dressed or taking care of themselves, it communicates a purposelessness and a distraction. Just as the guy that's power hungry and wears the $10,000 watch or whatever and is trying to, he becomes a distraction in and of himself that way.
I think you can be a distraction simply by choosing not to care for your own body.
God has given you your body as an incredible gift.
You are made in his image, and you are called to honor God by caring for your body in the way that you dress, in the way that you take care of yourself and your hygiene and all those things. Those things matter to the Lord.
[00:47:34] Speaker A: Good.
Let's go. We talked about men, how this applies, everything from, you know, modesty to then even like, slovenliness or sloppiness. Yep.
Let's then talk about applications for women here. And again, we read some of those texts already out of Timothy and Peter.
I think it's good to at first say that, like Ryan pointed out, God made women specially beautiful.
[00:48:05] Speaker D: Right.
[00:48:05] Speaker A: The fairer sex people call women. Right.
[00:48:08] Speaker C: Song of Solomon.
[00:48:09] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:48:09] Speaker C: It's not about a beautiful man.
[00:48:11] Speaker A: Right, right. And actually it's about a man delighting in his beautiful bride. Right. And so that is not even a hot take. That is just a really true scriptural, normal thing to say that beauty is a good gift. Physical beauty, God made, is a good gift. Physical beauty, again, even kind of really speaks to God's gift, goodness in making something right. Like we said, good and beautiful, they're not identical terms, but they're very closely connected to one another.
So beauty is a good gift. And so the question isn't something like, is it wrong to be beautiful? In my appearance. Right. That's. I don't think that's the right question, or at least get past that one quickly, because the answer is, no, it's not.
But again, back to the question of what kind of attention am I seeing, seeking? Or who would I like other people's attention to be directed to? Or even where would I like other people's attention to be directed? In the way that I'm dressing.
So I think those are some of the great questions that I would suggest to women as they go, what am I putting on?
Where am I trying to get people's eyes to go?
This goes back to the earlier question. Even if I'd say I'm not trying. Yeah. Where's my clothes will people's eyes go? Because this actually is, again, one of the. And I mean, you know, we all. We're all married, we have wives, sisters, whatever. Like, have heard from many women about how frustrating it can be to shop for clothing in this trash world culture that we're sitting in the middle. Middle of when it comes to this kind of thing where it seems like all the clothing is engineered to do a very particular thing to men's eyes. Right. And so I get it. I sympathize with that. I will say it's not true that 100% of it is, but it does make it much more difficult. So then the challenge would be ask yourself, what does this do to the eyes of those who see me? Will it lift their eyes up to my countenance? Right. Which should display the glory of God. Right. Or will it direct their eyes towards a part of my body that is meant to be concealed? And then again, I want to talk a little about why it's meant to be concealed.
So then the other thing is, who does the way I'm dressing point people to? That's the same question with men, right?
[00:50:32] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:50:32] Speaker A: Does it make everything I'm doing just about glorifying me or ultimately, am I like.
[00:50:39] Speaker D: No.
[00:50:39] Speaker A: The way I dress, I want to glorify God. I think, again, the priestly garments are the great example of this in the Old Testament, the way God gave really specific instructions about priestly garments because they were actually supposed to be very beautiful, and the beauty of them was supposed to elevate the eyes of the heart to the beauty and greatness of God. That was the whole point of that.
And honestly, to the high calling that the priest had was the other piece of that. So men and women ought to ask that question, who is my clothing directing people's attention towards? Sorry, I phrased that question weird, but to whom? Maybe that's the right way to say it. Are people's attention being directed with the way that I dress?
So that's a start on that. And I talked a long time there. So somebody else jump in?
[00:51:31] Speaker B: No, I mean, I think you're exactly right. And I mean, it's no secret that, you know, I think the primary issue here is sexual modesty, because we live in such a time and place where, I mean, you know, sex sells. It's everywhere.
It's literally, you know, to the point where, you know, you can't watch a commercial about shampoo or cereal, and there's somehow sexual undertones and stuff.
[00:52:00] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:52:01] Speaker C: It's like how they do that with the cereal.
[00:52:02] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:52:03] Speaker B: But it's out there. And so, you know, to pretend that we're not, as Christians, influenced by that is to kid ourselves. Right. And so I do think, you know, at Riverview, one of the things that we're doing is, you know, we do have a dress code for, like, our Praise Team.
We do have a standard there. We don't have a standard for everyone in the church, per se that's written. But why do we do that for the Praise Team? Well, because, number one, by volunteering for that, you have volunteered in a place of public service.
And so the eyes of the church are on the people that are on that stage. And as a part of that, again, your number one calling when you step on that stage is to direct the hearts and eyes of anyone in the room, not to yourself, but to the Lord. And so that's true of both men and women. And we want to help you do that. And so we're unapologetic about that.
We have those kind of expectations. I think when you're looking at that, then for women at large, I do think you need to consider. Yeah. What does this do in terms of very specifically things like cleavage or how long, how much of my body is exposed or uncovered? All of those things are realities, and it is a fallen world. I'll just be blunt. When I was in high school, growing up, the conversations that were happening in the locker room when I was on the basketball team, about girls in that room and about the cheerleader skirts and about all these things. I mean, it's things you can't repeat, and it's the things that would shame me. And honestly, I'm ashamed to admit that I was even a part of it. But the reality is those things happen all the time, and they're not just in locker rooms. They happen on construction sites. They happen all over the place today about grown women as well. And so I think to pretend that it's not is to kid ourselves. And so that's why, in part, why do we encourage that? Because we want to protect and honor women. We want women to be honored.
[00:54:15] Speaker C: Amen to all that. I think the cleavage stuff is important.
How long is my dress is important. I think, considering reconsidering how much tight clothing has become very acceptable, like leggings, that. That needs to be the. The word needs to be brought to bear in those areas. But I especially want to hear from. From you brothers, without giving more information than you can, that would make your daughters uncomfortable.
It seems to me like if it's true that the locker room conversations are happening, which they are, and they. If they're that bad, then they're worse now because the clothing's worse. And by the way, back then, how old are you? 40.
So 25 years ago, there wasn't cell phones you could watch pornography endlessly on for every young man. And so these conversations are, let's just be honest, worse than they were in a very short time. And so it seems to me that we need Christian fathers in wise, gentle, but clear ways to be willing to fight this battle with our daughters.
And I just want to hear from you men on that. My daughters are very young, but I'm going to hopefully fight that battle with grace and not exasperating, but with clarity one day. And I just think it'd be good for people to hear wisdom on that, because I know men are fighting that.
[00:55:36] Speaker A: You want to start on that?
[00:55:37] Speaker D: Well, I'm older than 40, way over.
I can remember a few things when I was in high school and the dress had swung to very short, and it was distracting, to say the least.
So by the time I'm 20 years older and have daughter coming into high school, you know, the dress was a little bit different, but it's the same old thing that maybe has been happening for hundreds of years, probably. And so we just have to talk about, what do we wear? Is it appropriate?
Is shorter better?
Probably not. There's some point that it's. What's. At some point, it's what's the point? What am I doing here?
Especially young ladies don't think the same way young men do. And so they need a father, a brother, somebody that can say, you know, maybe you should change just a little bit. You may be attracting some people that you really will have a difficulty with if you attract them too long.
[00:57:05] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, I think that when I think on that subject, I mean, I'll just say this.
Men, you are called to speak up on that issue in your home.
You're called to lead your home.
And passivity in that moment serves no one well.
And as a part of that, the last thing I'll just say is, you know, for wives and daughters, just to trust your husband in that, to trust your father, because there's something that he may see or know or understand about male sex drives, about the way that men's eyes work, that if, you know, my husband is a man of goodwill who loves the Lord. Okay, well, then just generally trust he's trying to protect you. The same thing. Daughters, if you know my father, he's not a perfect man, but he's a good man. He loves the Lord and he loves me.
He is not trying to just rain on your parade and make you miserable as a teenage girl. There's a reason that he has your best at heart in that moment. And to trust that. Now, that's a lot easier to say on a podcast than to work out in reality. But I would say, man, there's so many frustrations and terse arguments and tones that could be set aside if we could keep some of those things loaded in the back of our heads.
For me as a father, I'll just say this. I have standards about length. I have standards about what will be worn at church and what will not be worn at church. I have standards about bathing suits. And if it's mixed company, and then if it's just girls, that's a different thing.
But we have a lot of rules, and it's a constant conversation and without, you know, frustrating my own daughter. I'll just say it is a point of friction. You know, we're constantly having this discussion, this dialogue, but one of the things that I do appreciate about her is she has learned that it is just going to be a point of conversation. It's just going to be a dialogue. And so rather than it just being a, hey, here's the new rule we have just constantly. And I have the right to evaluate. Hey, are those shorts too short for what you're about to go do? Okay, let's go make a change.
And generally, I might get an eye roll or something here and there, but I'm grateful for the way that she has responded to this point. And, yeah, that's all I'll say on that.
[00:59:43] Speaker C: That was great stuff.
[00:59:45] Speaker A: Excellent. And I'm agreeing with that. And a lot of that is really where I'M at. I will add a couple things. One is that I place expectations on my children. I communicate expectations to my children, sons and daughters about what I expect them to wear in certain circumstances. Sometimes they have freedom to just kind of, you know, whatever. You're out playing, hanging out, doing something. I don't care. I mean, I care, but there's a wide range there of things that I don't mind you wearing. Right. So. But I will, I will agree especially with thank the Lord for your husband or father, because that actually is a grace built into your life there. Because, wife, ask your husband, how does this look like? Does this. Ask these questions to your husband? Where would this direct somebody's eyes if you don't know? I think, I mean, a godly husband, if he thinks it's going to direct other men's eyes other than to your countenance, he's going to go, no, you can't wear that. Right? In a loving way, he's going to go, no, you cannot wear that. Now, again, husband, just say it anyway. Don't wait for her to ask. Right. Like that's okay. But I'm just saying, like, that should be something you're thankful for. For one, for two, I agree with you that it should be an ongoing conversation. And it's okay to acknowledge that you've grown in your desire to apply this in a way that honors God and honors the women in your family. Like, I will acknowledge this. I have grown in certain ways, become. You can call it more traditional or, I don't know, I just think better.
[01:01:24] Speaker C: Michael and I were reflecting on that on the way in.
[01:01:26] Speaker B: It's been a massive transformation.
[01:01:28] Speaker C: I used to wear flip flops all
[01:01:29] Speaker A: the time regarding my own appearance. Yeah. And then regarding what I communicate to the members of my family that God has entrusted to me to go, this is what we're going to wear. And nope, no, you gotta take that back. Like I've said, no, keep the tags on that.
It's not staying in the house. And so, man, that is not particularly fun for most men. I think maybe some guys like that. But mostly that's not a very fun conversation. Men have it anyway. Have it anyway, because that is how you lead and love and protect the women God's called you protect. When it comes to your wife, that's obvious. When it comes to your daughters, the way that should work is you are her covering, you are her protector until a husband is her protector. You know what I mean? Like, she should be able to come to you and ask about this.
And you give guidance and direction on that until she has a husband that she can come and ask about that.
[01:02:28] Speaker C: Right.
[01:02:29] Speaker A: So anyways, that's a, that's a good thing that God has made. The only other thing I'll add is specifically, so we just got done with summer and swimwear is insane. It has gotten absolutely insane.
And what I, again, growing up in the 90s, it was bad. It's way worse now.
The amount of non coverage in swimwear, you walk into Target, right? Or wherever, and you're like, oh, that's like a young lady that walks in and goes shopping for swimwear, is presented with, this is normal. This is extra cheeky. Right. But this is normal. And you're like, normal is crazy. Normal is crazy. You should not wear normal. I'm going to just say it. Don't wear normal when it comes to swimwear. Throw the bikini in the garbage. I said it. I'm not apologizing for it. Throw the bikini in the garbage. My daughters are not wearing bikinis.
[01:03:29] Speaker C: Yeah.
[01:03:30] Speaker A: I do not allow it. I actually, again, it's just like an ongoing. It's hard to find. It's hard to find swimwear for women and for teenage girls that I go, okay, that's appropriate coverage and doesn't just, you know, direct people's eyes to some very specific places. Right. It's very hard to find that. So, but let that be the guiding principle. I am not going to send my daughter or my wife out into public wearing things that are designed to accentuate things that are actually meant to be for their husband's eyes only.
So throw the bikini in the garbage. I said it.
[01:04:11] Speaker C: Yeah, I agree. And I think that, you know, the principles here matter more than the, the hard line and principle is, I think Michael to. What Michael said is something that a lot of people don't talk about in the home. And I just want to encourage people to hear that, which is a good, protective man.
Especially those, well, those who are Christians know how their brain worked and their heart worked before they were Christians.
And they know the battle in their young life and in all of life about wrestling lust to death, even after being a Christian.
And if that's true, then proactive communication and thoughtfulness leads to, you know what? I don't want other men looking at my wife like that. And I certainly don't want other men looking at my daughter, my precious, little, sweet, beautiful, innocent daughter like that.
And so I'm going to draw a line and I'm going to take the heat for it.
[01:05:10] Speaker A: Yeah. Take the Heat for it. It's all right. It's a loving thing to do. And by the way, calling something swimwear doesn't change, like, what it does, right? That has been the most insidious trick played on women, and one of the most in our culture is putting something that is less coverage than undergarments, frankly, on a rack and calling it swimwear and saying, yeah, you should go out in public in this.
Unbelievable. Yeah, unbelievable. And so don't let the swimwear label trick you into wearing something that you should not wear out in public. And again, you know, I'm not. I'm not getting into, like, you know, tape measure of how much is exposed here and there, but I think I'll just leave it at, like, ask your godly husband or father. And if you don't have those things, then hopefully some of the framework we're giving on, where does this draw people's eyes? Where does this draw people's attention? What is my intent in what, wearing these things? And again, dispel yourself of the notion that what the culture says is normal and acceptable is even remotely, like, appropriate or acceptable. It might be normal, but it's not. It's not good. It's not good. It's damaging. So, anyways, I'll get off my soapbox a little bit there, but no, I
[01:06:26] Speaker B: mean, I would agree. I mean, I think the acid test, you know, for a lot of the swimwear for ladies is just, you know, if it is something that, if it were called underwear and some group of people were to see you in it publicly, would that embarrass you?
And if so, then that's probably not a great swimsuit.
And I think for men to ponder, yeah, again, what is that all about?
There is a.
A culture. Again, we crave sex in America. And so there's no doubt, you know, swimsuits, female swimsuits, most of them are built for the male gaze. I mean, that's just the reality. And so that sells money, and it moves a lot of swimsuits, but it's not necessarily what we're called to as God's people. And so, again, I just would encourage you to just evaluate that in your own home and heart, both for men and for women.
And then I think it's a good way to segue towards wrapping up. But the flip side of all this can be judgmentalism, can be, you know, I want to be sensitive to maybe female listeners even now, if you're feeling judged by your pastors, please don't. That's not our Goal.
Our goal is to honor the Lord and to help women be protected and honored. And.
And so to that end, what does discernment look like? What does accountability look like? What does judgment look like? I think is a good place for us to move as we start to wrap up.
[01:08:08] Speaker A: Yeah,
[01:08:10] Speaker D: one of the things we talked a little bit about it or around it also is about beauty. God has made women more beautiful than men.
That's his design.
And so it's good. But as I was doing some reading, it was pointed out that there are some people that are not beautiful.
Nothing from their own doing. It's just the way they were born and the way they grew. And we need to be careful about judging them.
They may have modesty in their own way, but we need to be careful that we don't pass judgment on somebody that doesn't meet our beauty standard.
And I thought Romans 15 brings out a verse that just pops on that. When he says, accept one another, then just as Christ accepted you in order to bring praise to God.
We mentioned it earlier that some people might say, well, God loves me just the way I am. He does, but that doesn't mean he wants to leave you in the pig pen.
And some people are not necessarily as attractive, but their hearts may be more attractive if we're listening, if we're looking inside them instead of what's on the outside.
And so the modesty is important because it can take our eyes to the wrong direction. Instead of their heart, we're looking at part of their flesh, Right?
[01:09:47] Speaker A: I mean, my goodness, the scripture says this too. Right. Charm is deceptive and beauty is fleeting. Right? It is fleeting.
[01:09:54] Speaker C: I think we've done well so far to kind of get at the discernment part. You know, motive, context, effect, all those things. I think the accountability issue, it's a tricky one because we're so downstream of just really immodest stuff.
But I would just say it's twofold. One, I'm going to give an answer to what I would just call, like, preventative discipleship. And one is maybe like responsive discipleship.
There's a reason Titus 2 says older women need to train the younger women to be self controlled and pure. The reality is we need older women who are spending time with younger women in a consistent, ongoing, purposeful way.
And a lot of what those younger women will see is they're catching something before they're being taught something. Oh, man, that sweet older lady in our church, she doesn't wear what I wear. Why not?
And so, like, we really need Older women to bring along younger women in this conversation. And then the responsive side is to say in general that I don't think it's sometimes it's helpful for older women to just blanket correct younger women when they show up wearing something that's improper and imprudent. There's a line where it's like, you should definitely say something, but if the line is questionable, I would just encourage older women to only correct if they have a pre existing relationship with this younger woman. Because these issues are so ticklish nowadays.
And also to understand that I really don't. I mean, I know that yes, younger women, they want attention and they're swimming in those cultures, but all of us are on a journey towards sanctification and all of us have done things that we aren't proud of, that we really didn't know were all that questionable in terms of Christian faith. And we needed someone to gently, kindly, clearly bring us along.
And I think it's important to have relationships pre existing with women in the church that are long standing and helpful.
[01:12:13] Speaker A: That's a great word. I absolutely agree with that.
Because it is delicate and needs to be. Even wisdom and guidance needs to be approached.
[01:12:21] Speaker C: Well, it's delicate especially because it feels very personal. They're trying to wear something that they feel is beautiful. And what they generally hear is, oh, they don't think that's beautiful when that's not really what you're saying, but that's what they hear.
[01:12:34] Speaker A: We've also been sort of taught that clothing is. And it is probably to some extent, but I think it's been accentuated that clothing is an expression of yourself. Right. And so again, I think some of that is nonsense and some of it is. Well, I mean, even talking about wearing a hat to church, right. There is a sense in which you have diversity.
So recognizing that, giving someone guidance on that, whether it be a fellow sister in Christ or your wife. Right.
You really ought to do that in a way that is loving and wise and shepherding versus Yeah, I don't advise bring down the hammer and judgmental and all that kind of stuff. Right. Because that's not helpful even if you're technically correct. Right. So absolutely agree with that.
[01:13:19] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think that. So to me, the missing piece has been just that it feels legalistic when the instruction is only focused on the outward.
And so this is a part of Christian discipleship in my mind in terms of when a person's heart begins to be turned towards the Lord.
I think again, the dress, the speech, the habits, a Lot of those things begin to change because God does the work. And so I think one of the reasons that we have to be really careful about communicating is when we talk about these things, really trying to help people understand.
I'm concerned about your dress, but I think I'm more concerned about what your dress may accidentally communicate. And so where's your heart? Help me understand where you're coming from. I actually would encourage a lot of questions, one to one, Help me understand, how did you make those decisions? Why did you buy this particular outfit?
And then providing some insight and instruction. And I think that goes for both men and women, because again, the young men, I've been on the other side of it. I've been the teenage guy that was criticized. Believe it or not, at one time I had hair and I had some actually kind of long hair at one season. And there was men that. There were men that just felt compelled in the church to say things. They didn't even hardly know my name. And. And so I didn't want to hear what they had to say. I was just being judged on my appearance.
I wasn't interested in that instruction.
[01:14:54] Speaker C: I mean, the hair was pretty rowdy.
[01:14:56] Speaker B: Yeah, it was rowdy. I mean, I liked it. Admittedly, it was a different season of life.
All that to say, though. The point being, I've been on both sides of this, and I do think there is a reason that some people bristle because they have received true judgment. They have received unhelpful criticism that hasn't been loving. And we've got to be realistic and honest about that as well.
[01:15:19] Speaker A: Go ahead. I want to add a small thought that I don't mean to open a can of worms with, but I mentioned this. You really do mean to open it. I don't know. I actually don't mean to because we want to wrap up, but the point of covering something is not to say that that thing is shameful. Because that's another thing that gets kind of swirls around in this conversation is cover that, because that's shameful.
Often in the Bible, what's covered is actually glorious. Right. We look at God's glory and angels covering their eyes. Like the idea of covering can actually be related to things that are good and glorious. And so I actually really believe that when we're encouraging women to cover parts of their body, it's not because it's not said in a tone of shamefulness, but rather God actually means that very specially for your marriage. Right. And in a good way. So again, because often these conversations about sex and modesty and all these things get couched largely in negative terms. And I won't apologize for giving some. Like actual prohibitions. Yeah, prohibitions. Or some handles on guidance on how to implement some of these things. But I think it's important to go, there's negatives, but there's actually the positive. Like, what are you covering this for? You're covering this because God intended that to be for the marriage bed, which is glorious, right? He made that. Yeah. It's good he designed that that way. So I actually wanted to just remove some of that conversation about what ought to be covered from. Because that's shameful and bad or whatever, to God actually has a good design there. And covering it actually leans into God's good design. So I wish I would have said that earlier, but I wanted to at least drop it towards the end of the conversation because I intended on that in this conversation.
[01:17:08] Speaker B: So, yeah, no, thank you for that. I think that's a fantastic word. I think the other thing. Christians, I would just caution every one of us, there's a slippery slope that says, essentially, I wouldn't wear that to.
Christians shouldn't wear that to. I can tell what kind of a Christian you are because you wore that.
And the reality is you're not God and neither am I. We don't know one another's hearts. And again, there does need to be a measure of grace that we show.
And here's where I would say this, especially to the people at church. You don't know the people at church. You don't know. You don't know if they're new Christians. You don't know their context. You don't know where they're coming from.
And so let's show the people we don't know tons of grace. Oh, yeah, let's be more vocal with the people that we spend a lot of time with. Let's practice accountability in those places and certainly in our own homes to say, hey, I love you, I care for you, and I do know you. And so I am going to speak up. And so in my mind, there's almost like a gradient in terms of the people that you're called to hold accountable and. And the people that you just need to be quiet and show some kindness towards.
And I think that has been helpful for me as a pastor is if I don't know that person, I'm probably not saying anything to them. If I do know that person and their claim to follow Christ. And this person, this guy and I are walking pretty closely together in life.
Yeah, I'm probably going to say something. If he comes to church two Sundays in a row and he looks like a slob, we're going to talk about it. But again, there's wisdom in applying that.
[01:18:52] Speaker A: Good. Anybody else want to throw a closing thought in here and we'll wrap up going once, going twice.
[01:18:56] Speaker C: I was just going to add that there's wisdom in applying it. And the wisdom I have failed in lots of times is the proper context for said conversations.
You know, generally not in front of other people or a planned, you know, lunch or something, as opposed to just saying, hey, I saw this, I'm going to immediately say something right away.
Sometimes that works and a lot of times it doesn't.
And I am learning that often.
[01:19:26] Speaker D: I think one thing that I had pulled out from Colossians, I believe it is it just says to men and women, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.
If that's what we're putting on, then we're going to shine for our Lord. And we want to remember that as we interact with others, whether they are dressed according to our thoughts or not, if we're looking them in the eye and in their hearts and showing that compassion and humbleness, it makes a difference to them and to us and to our Father.
[01:20:06] Speaker C: Okay, that's a fantastic verse.
[01:20:08] Speaker A: Read that one more. And that's just going to close us out. Read that for us one more time.
[01:20:12] Speaker C: I mean, all those are like, for
[01:20:13] Speaker A: the good of others, clothe yourself with.
[01:20:15] Speaker D: Yeah, this was in Colossians 3:12. And it says, therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.
[01:20:32] Speaker A: Amen. Biblical modesty further up and further in. Thank you for tuning in, and we'll see you next time.
[01:21:29] Speaker C: Holy.
[01:21:54] Speaker D: J.
[01:22:20] Speaker C: Sa.
