Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: It's one of those subjects that many Christians approach with strong opinions and maybe not very much patience for. The other perspective, alcohol.
How should what should Christians think about alcohol?
Some believers, well meaning, genuine Christians, treat drinking as an obvious mark of worldliness, as a sin. They would say alcohol is a sin.
Others would treat their freedom of drink as a mark of spiritual maturity or would say, that's something that I can do. You can't tell me otherwise. And then there's all kinds of other perspectives in the middle. So we're going to address that topic today. It's acknowledging up front a controversial one, but we want to dive in and just see what the Bible says. Because when we ask what should Christians or how should Christians think about alcohol, where we ought to go first is God's Word and say, well, what does God's word say about it? So the central question is, again, not just can a Christian drink alcohol? That's the starting question.
But our better questions are going to be what does scripture say about it? What does wisdom require? How would wisdom lead us? What does love for others mean in this situation?
And what does it mean for something to be technically permissible or while also potentially dangerous? So we're going to try to wrestle with all of those things. We will just see where we land on this episode.
Welcome to Word and Flesh, an episode, a podcast for Riverview Baptist Church from the elders of Riverview Baptist Church. My name is Nathan Bechtold. I realize I haven't always been saying my own name in introducing our our elders here, but I'm Nathan Bechtold, an elder at Riverview and joined today again by two other of our elders. Michael Bean.
[00:02:09] Speaker B: Yep. Glad to be here.
[00:02:10] Speaker A: And Ryan Anderson.
[00:02:11] Speaker C: What up?
[00:02:12] Speaker A: What up?
And this episode was obviously a topic that we had talked about doing at some point, addressing one I think it's good to just say right out front that we are fully aware there is a diversity of opinion on even within our own congregation, much less across Christendom, around the world and across time.
So we wade into it with the recognition that it's a difficult one to grapple with. But I don't think that that means that we should then say, well, then we don't want to talk about it. In fact, that was part of the reason we started this podcast, was to talk about stuff that would be helpful to unpack with several people looking at God's Word kind of wrestling through stuff, saying here's where we land, and hoping that where we land is all on God's Word, even if Our practice of that sometimes is diverse. So there's my setting up of the conversation today.
What do you want to. How do you want to start us off?
[00:03:14] Speaker B: Pastor Michael, I think what you said was really good, that there's an acknowledgment that I think we all need to have. Just as we get started on, we need to be able to agree on what's true.
But the way that we practice that truth may look different, we can show a lot of grace, right? And I think that's an important place to start.
And from there to say, let's just start with the Bible, right? Let's just look at what does the Bible actually say about alcohol? Because at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter what Pastor Michael thinks. It doesn't matter what Elder Ryan or Nathan have to say. It ultimately just matters what God's word says. And that's where we're going to be held accountable and given account. So, couple thoughts. You know, essentially, I think you could sum it up by saying that the Bible permits drinking alcohol and yet warns against it as dangerous, all at the same time.
And if you go back and you review this, I took some time to actually study.
There's really three major categories. One is, hey, there are references towards alcohol that are really positive. There are references towards alcohol that are really negative. And then there's references in the Bible towards alcohol that are really just neutral and just saying, hey, this is a part of the story. Alcohol was present or it was sold or wine was bought or whatever. And it just kind of treats it as a part of history and life, which it is. And so when you look at those categories, the first one is favorable. There's roughly 40 different verses, depending on how you count. That would say, wine is a gift that God has given it to us to make man's heart glad. I think is one of the psalms
[00:05:01] Speaker A: teach us that some of them are even prescriptive. I mean, you have the moment when Paul tells Timothy, stop drinking only water. Have a little wine for the sake of your stomach, Right?
[00:05:09] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:05:09] Speaker A: Again, you can always go, okay, we just had a little, you know, whatever. You can parse it out. But the point is that Paul prescribes to Timothy, have a little wine, right? And so you couldn't then go, well, the Bible says you're not allowed to drink. It's like, well, but no, but that's in the Bible. So, yeah, pointing those out, it's like they range from praise to, it gladdens the heart of man. To in certain instances, somebody even prescribing
[00:05:32] Speaker B: or I mean, obviously most famously Jesus, I think it was it John 2 where he turns the water to wine. And let's be honest, that is not grape juice. It was not grape juice.
[00:05:43] Speaker A: Why would he have gotten the praise for the wine? Yeah, leading the party, like, oh, so we're just doing the grape juice then.
[00:05:50] Speaker B: Right? That's not what happened. And so, yeah, so there's these 40 some odd positive references. The overwhelming majority of references in the Bible are just neutral, that, hey, these are just wine was drank or had in this context or whatever the case may be. This person got drunk, it just kind of records it.
Then there are negative references or warnings, and there's roughly 80 of those. And so many of those are in the proverbs, many different accounts, as Paul warns against drunkenness in the New Testament.
And so it's 40 positive, 80 negative, over 100 neutral. And I think even that is just interesting in and of itself.
[00:06:33] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
Ryan, you want to add to the contextualizing of that at all or any of those sort of rise to significance for you in terms of highlighting something about them?
[00:06:46] Speaker C: I think that the.
Yeah, to Michael's point, the amount of negative references are interesting. And most of those, not most, but a lot of them have something to do with the admonishment and encouragement to be sober minded that the call of the Christian life is to rightly discern all things and not to be discerned by the bottle, you know, not to be overtaken, but to have a command and self control.
And so that's a really important principle for this conversation. Self control, self control, self control.
[00:07:19] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, so why is it interesting that there's so many negative references then?
[00:07:25] Speaker B: In my mind, I think for the same reason. Why does Jesus talk about money so much? Because Jesus is acknowledging money is prone to have a power over your heart and you need to be careful in how you steward it and think about it.
And I think by extension there is a similarity there with alcohol that, hey, it's here, it's real.
But there is a power that this thing has that you must be very careful with.
[00:07:55] Speaker A: That's like a little teaser for the next episode.
[00:07:57] Speaker B: It is. And so, yeah, two for one there. Yeah.
[00:08:01] Speaker A: Okay, so a couple others.
I also made a list because the water into wine one is interesting.
A list of moments where it was praised or prescriptive and not. Again, this is certainly not comprehensive.
[00:08:14] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:08:14] Speaker A: The water into wine one is interesting. It's interesting that Jesus does that after they've already drank all the wine. Like, you could see Jesus going, you know what, guys, that's enough. Like, we're gonna just do this water into, like, nice reverse osmosis filtered water, and it'll be better. You know what I mean? He could have done that, but he chose not to.
[00:08:36] Speaker C: Right?
[00:08:38] Speaker A: Actually, this one was just in, at least for some of our life groups, in life group that we were just reading. As I'm recording this, as we're recording this Last Sunday, Matthew 11, when Jesus contrasts himself with John the Baptist, or maybe it was two Sundays ago, whatever it was John, where he kind of criticized them. He says, john came neither eating or drinking.
And you criticize him for that. And then the Son of Man comes eating and drinking, and you say, look, a glutton and a drunkard. Right? Again, Jesus is saying, acknowledging. He's not saying, I'm getting drunk, but what he is saying is that I'm here eating and partaking in wine at these events or whatever. And they're using that to call him a drunkard. We've been in Ecclesiastes some in Ecclesiastes moments where it praises like the, you know, bread is made for laughter, wine gladdens life.
Deuteronomy. This is one that is wild. I did not remember ever even reading this passage. And that's because when you read.
When you're reading through the Bible and you get to Deuteronomy, you've also been, like beaten up pretty heavily at that point with Leviticus and numbers. And so sometimes you're just making it through deuteronomy.
[00:09:41] Speaker C: Sure.
[00:09:42] Speaker A: Deuteronomy 14. This is so interesting to me.
Deuteronomy 14, 22, 26. So God is prescribing how they're going to tithe of their crops and all this different stuff. And he says, but if he says, take your tithe and bring the tithe of the grain and all this stuff into the place to worship. And of course, they don't even have Jerusalem. They don't have the temple yet. When he's prescribing this, he's saying, someday when you're there. And he says, but if it's too far for you to bring all that stuff, then go sell it at the market and then go to the place where God has made his presence known. That will ultimately be Jerusalem with the money that you got from selling all this stuff. And then it says, and then use the money, and I quote, to buy oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice.
That's a kind of a crazy verse. Like, he basically is prescribing them to have a feast as part of their bringing in the tithe to the Lord. And in that he includes wine and strong drink. Right. Again, I'm not saying that now we're going to prescribe everybody to go do that, but I'm saying that's there in what God was prescribing for his people. It was assumed. Right.
So, and then, yeah, I think the warnings are abundant as well. Like a lot of them are in Proverbs. Right. Proverbs 20, verse 1. Wine is a mocker. Strong drink, drink a brawler. Whoever is led astray by it is not wise.
Proverbs 23, 29, 35 is probably the most vivid and poetic lament over the state of the drunkard. It's the whole, like, you know, passes out and wakes up and when can I have another drink? And this whole thing. And it's really strongly condemning the person who is, you know, just like lingers over the bottle. Right. Ephesians 5:18, Be not drunk with wine. Galatians 5:21. Drunkenness is among the works of the flesh. Romans 13:13 condemns drunkenness. So you see a lot of those in Old and New Testament warning about those. So anyways, I just wanted to run down some of the scriptures that I had pulled up that were both spoke positively about it as a gift from God and then said also, be very careful.
[00:11:51] Speaker B: Right, right. And I think so immediately, two takeaways in terms of coming conversation among Christians about alcohol.
The first is, I think we should be careful not to condemn what God has not universally forbidden. So there is not a clear and obvious prohibition against alcohol in and of itself in Scripture. And I think that is worth saying that the teetotaler position that, hey, we will have no alcohol ever, and if it ever touches my mouth, it's a sin.
That's not scripturally based. Right.
[00:12:29] Speaker A: I will add that it could be a sin for you to. I mean, the specific you. Right. The Bible says if something is not done in faith, if a person doubts in their conscience whether they ought to, they should not.
[00:12:41] Speaker B: Right. And that's. Yeah, we're going to get there.
[00:12:43] Speaker A: I'm just, you know, adding to what you're saying there that what you can't say is no one is allowed to. It is a sin for all people to partake in alcohol.
[00:12:53] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:12:53] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. So condemning what God doesn't condemn.
[00:12:55] Speaker B: That's Right, Yeah, I think that's important. And then I think the other piece is just neither is it prescribed in a way that says, hey, you don't need to worry about practicing wisdom in this area. There's some pretty serious warnings that require wisdom attached to this. And so I think it's so much more complex than, hey, all things are permissible. I'm free. And it's also much more complex than don't ever.
How dare you.
[00:13:29] Speaker C: Yeah, Amen and amen. I just always, as I read church history, I'm grateful when the church at least tries to say something.
And so I think it's easy for us to kind of, you know, with scripture, push back on that teetotaler position that if that honestly dominated much of Baptist theology from 50s to early 2010s. I mean, like, it's a recent recovery that says, well, we need to be a little more nuanced, but we have to just also consider the whole context, which is they were responding to a culture that was just inflamed with alcoholism post prohibition. I mean, it was even during the prohibition, obviously, but just inflamed with alcohol. And so while I disagree with the fundamental arguments of the Bible that they're making, I at least just want to give some honor to say, you know what, at least they tried to say something. At least they tried to push back on something in culture. They did it. You know, they swung the pendulum way too far. But I think I have more respect for that than just like, well, let's not say anything at all. You know, they put their neck out there. Yeah, they were wrong, but they put their neck out there.
[00:14:41] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, I think we can all hope that future generations will be gracious with our handed attempts to respond to a cultural moment and at least show some grace and go, well, they were in a weird spot and they tried. Now, the one thing that you can say, and the one criticism I'll level against them is like, is actually what Michael was just saying, which is, but we ought not ever to condemn what God doesn't condemn and we ought not ever to praise something God condemns. Those are actually, I'm not going to say they're easy, but those are at least clear. Right. So when we do, if we ever find ourselves doing that, we should stop doing that.
[00:15:22] Speaker C: Yeah. It was in general a response out of fear of losing a generation, not a response of faithful Christ, an understanding of faithful Christian liberty and self control.
[00:15:35] Speaker A: Right.
[00:15:35] Speaker C: It was a response of fear which we can be sympathetic to, but also recognize on the other side of it, that there is more to the conversation.
[00:15:43] Speaker B: So. And I mean, we're going to go to the. The obvious place next, which is. So where is the sin?
Like where. Where is sin in terms of handling alcohol wrongly?
[00:15:57] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, we would call it drunkenness. Right.
But again, that word immediately requires some unpacking because it's like, okay, drunkenness. That's a. Is that a categorization of a pattern? Is that a one time had one too many that. I mean, you know what I mean? Like, you have to immediately go, what, what does it look like? I'll say, I'm already talking way too much this episode. Sorry.
I'll say I've mentioned Aristotle before and how Aristotle tries to help categorize virtues by giving the middle and then the excess and the deficiency and says like the middle thing. I actually wrote that down because I thought that could be helpful on this. The way Aristotle talks about the wise use of, I think, alcohol, but also just maybe even like food and things that you would get pleasure, enjoyment from would be the virtue of temperance. And that's not to be confused with, against, like the temperance movement. Temperance historically didn't mean not having anything at all. It just, you know what I mean? But the virtue was called temperance for Aristotle. And the excess on one side was self indulgence or, you know, and again, you can sort of start to go, oh, I know what that would look like. Right.
[00:17:13] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:17:14] Speaker A: And the deficiency, which you maybe have a harder time imagining what this exactly is like, but would be almost just an unhealthy insensibility to anything that God has given to be enjoyed. Right, sure. Like a drabness or a refusal to enjoy the things that God has given to enjoy. Again, it's not a mandate to go out and do all the things, but. So anyways, that's the way Aristotle might place it, is that temperance would be in the middle of those things. It's not self indulgence, but it's also not saying no to anything that. Because it's bad. If that thing gives you enjoyment, sure.
[00:17:50] Speaker B: No, I think that's good. I think an interesting point of conversation as it pertains to drunkenness. So drunkenness is the sin, but here's perhaps, I think, a practical side of this.
What does that really mean? What does drunkenness look like? Do you have to be just blackout drunk?
Is that the limit? Like, is that the.
Is that when you've crossed into sin, is when you're just so drunk you can barely stand?
[00:18:16] Speaker C: Yeah. No, before that And I think the reason I could say that with a level of clarity is because, I mean, consider the negative command is do not be drunk. The positive is be sober minded. And so the second that the alcohol in any way overtakes your conscience or overtakes your ability to be self controlled is, I would say, the moment of sin. Yeah, well, there's a lot there.
[00:18:43] Speaker A: No, I think that's a good way into it though.
[00:18:45] Speaker C: Yeah, there's that. There's also the. I'm drinking against my conscience.
But I would say, and you guys may push back on this, but I would just say in general, name any.
I don't want to use the word vice, but name any thing that you could use to wrongly distract you from dealing with the problems of life.
In other words, what I don't mean is like, you know, I call Michael and say, man, I'm really struggling. That's a good way to deal with the matters of life.
I think that a poor way to deal with a matter of life is. And it could be a sinful way to use alcohol is, man, I've had a hard day at work. It's going to feel really better when I get that cup of whiskey tonight.
[00:19:30] Speaker A: Yeah. Like dulling my experiences of life, I think. Yeah, that's a. Again, one drink for one person is meant for a very different thing than for the other person. Right. So yeah, if you're, if you're using it to not address something that you want. Yeah.
[00:19:48] Speaker B: To hide.
[00:19:49] Speaker C: Even if, even if you're not getting drunk.
[00:19:51] Speaker A: Right.
[00:19:51] Speaker C: But you're using it to hide from the matters of life, I would say that's a sinful use of it.
[00:19:57] Speaker A: Right. And that's exactly the way to go with it, I think, because it actually gets at the heart of, of why you would do that.
[00:20:04] Speaker B: Right.
[00:20:04] Speaker A: And. And then that extends to importantly, beyond alcohol.
[00:20:07] Speaker C: Oh, much beyond it.
Anything that you could enjoy, really. But we do have to say, like alcohol does have a certain measure of power over the spirit. The other things probably.
[00:20:18] Speaker A: But I mean, a person, a person, I mean, in this, because this is real too. A person like gluttony, like a person who eats to assuage some kind of pain, I would say is committing the same sin. Right, right.
[00:20:31] Speaker B: Escapism. Yeah, escapism is a sin.
But to stay focused, I think, yeah, we're touching on some things that are really good.
And in terms of drunkenness, I mean, one of the things that I would just say again is if you cross into a line where, I mean, I would just say I think the measurable, the police line is unable to drive.
If you're unable to drive, probably that's a good measurement of. I don't have, frankly, all my sensibilities. Yeah, sensibilities. And all my normal operating mechanisms. And so I think that would just be a place to ponder for any person that does regularly drink. I think you're right. Besides the drunkenness, there's all kinds of other little tentacles that can grow around the use of alcohol. And so we've already mentioned kind of escapism.
Another one I think is just anything that is compulsory, anything that compels you, hey, I feel like I need this in some way.
If you need anything other than Jesus, something's off. Right. I mean, that's just the reality.
And so I actually was listening to a podcast just the other day that shared minister Eugene Peterson, who, certainly not a perfect man, but a good man, wrote some really helpful books on pastoring.
But in his personal diaries that has come out. He didn't struggle with drunkenness, but in his personal diaries, he would write and say, I struggle with not turning to alcohol at some point for some sort of just relief. And he lamented the. The hold and the power that it had on him. He was not saying, I'm struggling with being drunk. He was just saying, I hate that I have to, for whatever reason, turn to this more than I would like. And I think, again, that is actually a good inclination. Whether it's your cell phone or a cup of alcohol of your choice, it's worth considering. What has power over me that it compels me to do this?
[00:22:36] Speaker C: Yeah, because it's revelatory. I mean, all those things in this context, alcohol, the compulsory use of it reveals just a general lack of self control.
[00:22:46] Speaker B: Exactly. And that's referred to the spirit.
[00:22:48] Speaker C: And that's for the spirit. It's a necessary trait of godliness. But it also reveals a conscience issue.
Let me say it differently. It reveals a desire issue, a misunderstanding of what I actually need to be healed or what I actually need to experience enjoyment. Now, it's not to say we can't enjoy those things, but compulsory uses of it mean that it's enjoying us more than we're enjoying it, you know?
[00:23:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:23:19] Speaker C: Like it's taking advantage of us more than we are using it. Well.
And having mastery over it, you know, for our own enjoyment or for the glory of God.
[00:23:30] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, all things are permissible for me, but I will not be mastered by anything. Right. That's Paul, in which somebody have the reference off the top of their head. I forget.
[00:23:39] Speaker B: Not off the top of my head. I want to say First Corinthians, but I don't know.
[00:23:43] Speaker A: Should write these things down before I just say them.
But yeah, that's. Paul is making that super clear. And again, that one extends way beyond alcohol to anything that would master you. And again, I think it's really important too, that with the alcohol conversation and with other conversations about Christian self control and about walking in the spirit and about bringing every aspect of our life under the lordship of Christ, to not do it in a way that is sort of like bludgeons people with, like a man, you get out of line, you cross that, oh, eight line one time and it's over for you, buddy. You know what I mean? But, like, because the goal is simply that we would be driven always to bring every aspect of our life under the lordship of Christ so that I would not be mastered by anything but my master Jesus. Right, Right. So I guess what I'm trying to say there is. I want to push it positively to say, if you abstain from alcohol, good, fine, good. Like abstain. I would say abstain without judgment on those who don't abstain.
[00:24:56] Speaker C: Right.
[00:24:56] Speaker A: And also watch yourself that you not be mastered by a different thing.
And if you partake in alcohol, then I would say, good, God gave that as a. As something to be enjoyed.
Watch that you don't be mastered by that. And if you. And if you sort of observe, you know, I think I'm having a drink a little too often or I think because those are the, Those are like the realities that a person who goes, I'm not going to abstain, but I want to walk wisely in the spirit with this. You actually have to go, well, then what are those parameters? Right? I mean, you know what I mean? To keep like one of those police blow tests in my house and like, you know, like always be checking if I'm over the line.
[00:25:33] Speaker B: Right? Because really.
[00:25:34] Speaker A: And we call this word in flesh. Like, I like to give some. How would a person be who is not abstaining but really wants to walk wisely with that? How would they go, okay, this is what walking with wisdom would look like, you know, kind of practically with that. And I think at least one way would.
Would be to recognize, you know, in so many areas that I've already am training my kids in this, not with alcohol, but with a lot of areas of life, like,
[00:26:02] Speaker B: that's an important qualifier. Thank you.
[00:26:04] Speaker A: Is if you see where the line is or you know, that it's like, generally over there.
Like, wisdom means don't get close going in this area, but not, like, getting all the way up as close as I can be. Like, I wonder if I can get right on the line, Right? So there's a kind of wisdom in just going, hey, you know, just stay clear of it a little bit. Going, not going, how many can I possibly down? How many brewskis can I possibly down in an hour before I cross the line of drunkenness? It's like, okay, you're playing the dumb game here, dude. Like, that's not right. So that would be one admonishment is to. Is to go, okay?
Stay, like, back from where a line might more or less be.
But then also just, I think, check yourself regularly, you know, and go.
And again, I think this applies to alcohol and a lot of things is to go, am I being mastered by this thing? What would that look like if I were being mastered by it? Am I desiring it?
I mean, to desire a desirable thing at all is not bad, but am I, like, obsessed with it?
[00:27:06] Speaker B: Right?
[00:27:07] Speaker A: Am I addicted to it? Do I not think that I can be happy without it?
Like, asking yourself those questions and then being on your guard, maybe, is the scriptural term there, right, against that kind of thing, that's one at least.
[00:27:23] Speaker B: I think that's really good. I think another helpful tool for those who do consume alcohol is just to think about, yes, does it master me and ask yourself that tough question. But also, there should be a few people in your life that you give permission to, to ask you some tough questions about your use of alcohol and to say, man, if you see me crossing this line, say it. Call me out on it again. It's like the reality is the truth. If a friend cuts you with care and with truth, it's the cut of a surgeon. It's a healing cut.
And so to open yourself up to that, it hurts. It's not comfortable. It's awkward. But if a Christian brother or sister that, you know, cares for you is willing to say something, let him say it and have the, you know, humble enough heart and thick enough skin to hear it out.
[00:28:17] Speaker C: Okay? Pastor Michael, what do I do if I'm a husband, I don't drink. But just imagine for the hypothetical, that I really enjoy, you know, a glass of whatever with my dinner, and my wife is really uncomfortable with it.
What do I do?
Is my desire to partake equal to my wife's desire for me to honor her?
What do I do?
[00:28:47] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's a really good Question. And the way I would answer it is I think that love at certain moments does look like laying certain freedoms down that we have in Christ.
And so if your wife is overly concerned for you, I think, or feels offended by a freedom you have, I mean, here's the deal.
I used to watch a ton of football on Saturdays, as much as I could.
And God used my own wife to refine me, to say, you know what? You probably shouldn't be watching 8 to 12 hours of college football on a Saturday afternoon. There's probably some. Some other things you could be doing or should be doing. And in fact, it may even be sinful for you to sit there and watch 8 to 12 hours of college football every Saturday. And so my wife was wise and a good gift to me in that way. And I think it would be wise for a husband to really consider what is it that the Lord is perhaps saying to me through my wife in this concern.
Here's where I would like us to go in terms of this. And it's related to that question, just maybe a little more broadly. Where I have seen the. The controversy enter into church life is the stumbling block issue.
So I think most Christians agree, yes, drunkenness is a sin. I think most Christians agree, yes, we shouldn't condemn what God does not condemn.
I think where the controversy and people start to really actually do throw some stones towards each other is what does it mean to be a stumbling block as it relates to alcohol? And if you are needing a reference for that, that comes in, there's a major discussion in 1 Corinthians in particular, I think, chapter 8. And then also in Romans 14. The context in those passages is food sacrificed to idols. Okay, so Paul in both cases is talking about food that had been sacrificed to idols.
And some Christians were very offended by the consumption of that food. Other Christians were not. In saying, essentially, we know the truth, there is no such thing as an actual idol.
There is no such thing as other gods. And so we're free to eat this food.
And Paul writes this idea then, that those who are strong should bear with the failings of the weak, and that we should not put a stumbling block in another brother or sister's way.
And so I think that is where, in my mind, the rubber meets the road. So how would you guys answer this stumbling block issue? What does that look like? Because I think, here's the thing. There is a way to sin and put a stumbling block in another person's way as it relates to alcohol. I think that's possible.
[00:31:29] Speaker C: Well, the undertone of, I think what Paul is saying there, I mean, at the most basic level is Christians have to live with one another in mind.
For example, it isn't just, well, I'm going to do my own thing, I'm going to drink and they can deal with it.
It's the same reason why I hate the conversation surrounding modesty right now. Well, I'm going to get addressed how I want to dress and everybody else has to deal with it. That's not what Christians think.
Christians think first of the people of God.
How does what I'm doing with my liberty and my conscience affect the people of God?
And just to be honest, I just don't think in the individualist, expressive, individualist culture we're living in that that's even the first question on the mind is how does my liberty affect the witness of the people of God? It's just, well, I enjoy it. They'll just have to deal with it. And so I think, obviously, I think what Paul is saying is fundamentally Christians have to live in a mutual, self giving kind of way. In other words, I'm going to live to give myself to this community and everything I do is in light of that. So if that's true, that means, I think very practically and I think most Christians would have heard this argument before and I think it's a faithful one, that it would be a sin for me, you know, knowing that Michael, this is not true, but knowing Michael has
[00:32:52] Speaker B: struggled with alcoholism in the past also, again, not true.
[00:32:55] Speaker C: That's what I mean. That's what I'm saying. Not true for me to even to use my Christian liberty to drink a glass of wine in front of him. I think there's no question that that is sinful.
Okay,
[00:33:10] Speaker B: so I wanted to just read the 1 Corinthians 8 passage real quickly. So it says this 1st Corinthians, chapter 8, verse 8. And I think the beginning verse is important.
He says, food will not condemn us to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat and no better off if we do. I think you could almost replace eat with drink. I think that's an important principle. We are no better off if we do eat. We are no better off if we do not eat is what Paul begins with. But take care that this rite of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol's temple, will he not be encouraged, if his conscience is weak, to eat food offered to idols? And so by your knowledge this weak person is destroyed, the brother for whom Christ died, thus sinning against your brothers and wounding their conscience. When it is weak, you sin against Christ. Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.
And so I do think the guiding principle when it comes to food or drink is love.
Is this a loving way for me to proceed in light of the leadership position that I have, in light of the struggles of the people around me, in light of the context in which I'm living? And so here at Lake of the Ozarks, there is a very large party culture here. There's a large culture where the goal is not just to have a glass of wine in moderation, it's to get as drunk as possible and enjoy the weekend.
And so as a part of that, and knowing my own personal position of leadership as a pastor, I don't drink. We don't have alcohol in our house because I don't want to be a stumbling block. But that doesn't mean that every person at Riverview needs to take that exact position.
I think context matters and to proceed with how can we love one another? Well, given where I'm at and given the freedoms that God's given me, yeah, I agree.
[00:35:15] Speaker C: And I also just, you know, every cultural moment is different.
And you know, the harsh reality is we're just living in a culture that lacks self control on every measurable matter and certainly is in it. I mean, how many times can you just watch it? Especially if you're watching college football, you watch for one game and there's probably plus or minus five or more alcohol commercials. I mean, it's just, it's rampant. And again, that doesn't mean you can't do it. I'm just saying, I think as a leader and as Christians living in unique cultural moment, every Christian ever who's lived faithfully has considered the context of their moment.
And I think it is becoming on Christians to either, according to their conscience, abstain and model to the world that it's possible to have joy without said thing, or if they're going to enjoy, to model above reproach self control privately and publicly.
[00:36:26] Speaker B: That's good.
So, yeah, I think in terms of that, what does it look like? And again, I think we can talk about this.
What does it look like to love the people of Riverview? Well, just given your own position and context and leadership role?
[00:36:47] Speaker A: Well, I'll answer that, but I'll add this is part of the answer is that I think Jesus lived in a time when People were rampantly giving into the desires of the flesh. Read Paul's letters to the Corinthians.
My goodness. Right. Yeah. And to the. Yeah. So, like, my.
The area that I get a little bit cautious on the conversation about stumbling. I have seen that argument, which is, comes from the scripture used and then just like shifted, like, slid just a little bit, and then it's turned into, like, so you can't drink. Look, and then, you know, the Bible says you can't drink. You know what I mean? Like, I'm just saying, like, growing up, I saw that and it was like, well, wait, but I thought that Jesus turned water into wine after there had been a lot of it consumed at a party.
And I thought that, you know, and go on and on. And it's like it creates this cognitive dissonance where you go, well, wait, did people not struggle with drunkenness back then?
Actually, turns out they did because there's a lot of proverbs that warrant against it. So I'm just saying, you know, I think you have to handle that one carefully, too, and be careful. I'm not saying you're doing this. I'm just saying I've seen people go, the Bible says, don't do a thing that could cause somebody to stumble.
So you just like, you can't drink. Like, you probably should not drink because somebody might stumble. And then it's like, well, then we're back to prohibiting. Like, God could have just said that in the Bible. He could have just said, you know, I made this, I probably shouldn't have.
And it's just best if you just don't. Just don't. Right? And I mean, he could have said that at any point along the way. So I, like, I think it's.
Sometimes I think holding those two things and there being tension there is the right way to hold those things.
Of course, actually.
[00:38:43] Speaker B: Totally with that.
[00:38:44] Speaker A: Oh, man. Okay, so this is a good thing that God has made, but there are a lot of ways to use it unwisely, and it can be unwise in different contexts because wisdom requires understanding people and situations and all that.
[00:38:56] Speaker C: Right?
[00:38:56] Speaker A: I mean, again, that's walking by the spirit allows you to do that.
[00:38:59] Speaker C: Well, I was just going to say that, you know, one of the.
One of the interesting problems was trying to apply First Corinthians 8 and Romans 14, is that they both assume that in the community of God, I know the person across from me well enough to understand when their conscience is interrupted or isn't. Do you know what I mean? Like, in order for me to know.
In order for me to know that I shouldn't drink in front of said person, I need to know them well enough to know that the reason I'm not drinking is because they've struggled with drinking.
And one of the problems in this conversation is that somewhere along the line, and this is a church deal, somewhere along the line, Christians forgot that the place for me to mortify my flesh, to kill the sin in me is not just through private war. It's actually through the public good of the church. In other words, not everybody in the church, but my pastors and the people around me that are close to me need to know, man, here is my besetting sin.
Here's the thing that I'm fighting against.
And that's going to mean if I know that about you, then as the person who's not weaker in that matter, I need to abstain because I know you. But I think we've gone so far away from actually knowing each other so well in the body that we don't even know where someone has a weaker conscience on something because we don't know each other.
[00:40:30] Speaker A: Good point. Yeah, that's a good point.
[00:40:32] Speaker B: That's good. And I think, too, again, I'll tell a very brief story. I was at a restaurant years ago, and I actually bumped into a couple of church members at the restaurant. They had some wine on the table, and I honestly didn't think a thing of it. Just went to my table and sat down. And then the next Sunday, they saw me and came and basically repented and said, oh, my gosh, I'm so sorry for what happened.
[00:41:07] Speaker A: So Baptist it is.
[00:41:10] Speaker B: Yeah. And so the principle that I tried to share in that moment was, look, you don't need to apologize to me, but if you feel like you did need to apologize, I think that's worth examining in your heart. What is it? Why do I feel like I need to apologize?
Maybe they were drinking more than they should have. I didn't ask. In the moment, maybe there was some other thing. Or was it just old Southern Baptist legalism that says my pastor saw something and this was the way it's always been, and this is the tradition. And so now I'm afraid they'll think less of me.
Whatever the case, we need to, again, look at. It really doesn't matter what ultimately a man thinks or doesn't think. And it ultimately doesn't matter what the tradition has been or may be in the future. What does matter is you're going to stand and give an account to God for every sip you take, whether it's alcohol or soda or whatever, and whether you've done that responsibly, treated your body well, and remain sober minded. And so I think to be thinking that way, I'm not here to please people, I'm here to please God. And so how do I please God in relationship to that?
I think Ryan's point is really good though, in that as Christians, we should know each other well enough to know, yeah, this may offend someone.
And so there's a context in which I'm willing to lay it down in love and vice versa.
Also, let's not be so thin skinned that every time I see somebody doing something that's not exactly the way I would do it, I point the finger and call them a dirty sinner.
There is a way of love that is, I think, stronger and better than either of those that we're called to walk in.
[00:42:58] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, there's a kind of a tyranny of the weaker brother too, potentially. Right. Like this idea that R.C.
[00:43:06] Speaker B: sproul actually titled a sermon that I believe. But anyway, go ahead.
[00:43:10] Speaker A: But really like this idea that you could find a person that is offended by almost anything, of course, struggles with sin in a whole bunch of areas. Right. And so I think that again, thinking about how do I love my brother or sister in Christ? Well, but how do we also not be the kind of people that want to exert rules over onto other people?
[00:43:41] Speaker C: Bind somebody's conscience.
[00:43:41] Speaker A: Yeah, thank you. That's the phrase I'm looking for, buying somebody's conscience because of a thing that I myself cannot do and perhaps should not do, because in faith, I cannot do. Right. I can't do this thing in good conscious conscience, but I'm going to kind of push it over onto somebody else. So then I think your point about love is the most important one because I think as Christians, as we walk in love with one another in the body, if I'm sitting with somebody somewhere at a restaurant or at a home or whatever, and I'm aware that alcohol has been a struggle for that person now, I mean, I might have a conversation, but probably would like to have a conversation with them about it, honestly, because the conversation might go, it was a struggle for me a long time ago. I don't drink anymore. It doesn't bother me if other people do. Like, I've actually had those conversations with people before. That's a different conversation than somebody that goes, I have been abusing alcohol actively and I'm struggling with it. And Like, I might actually make a different decision in those. In those two contexts. In one of them, I might go, somebody that goes, no, it doesn't bother me if you have a beer and okay. And then in the other, even though that person once upon a time struggled with this, and they're like, I don't drink anymore, it doesn't bother me when I see other people do that. Another person goes, it is. I'm really struggling with this right now. I do think it would be unloving for me to be like, well, I had two, but I'll just drink them both, you know, like, so. You know what I mean? Like, I think it's really obvious in that moment that the loving thing to do would be like, all good, man. We'll just, you know, have something else to drink. It's fine. And so I think that love is the governing thing in those moments. But what I hesitate on is not wanting fear of offense to be such a.
Such a driving force that everywhere I go and half the things I do, I'm always thinking I'm about to offend another weaker brother who I might not know about, but might be across the room right now. You know what I mean? Because I don't actually think that's what that verse is prescribing. Like, I don't think it's saying there could always be a weaker brother somewhere.
So, like Paul says, I'll give up meat, but he didn't give up meat. I mean, I don't think he did. Right. He's not saying give up meat. He's writing in the context saying, give up meat, sacrifice to idols. He's just saying, if you're with somebody and you know that it's a problem for him, then, yeah, just love him and don't. So, I mean, correct me if you think I'm reading that wrong.
[00:46:12] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think it's a little bit of an oversimplification. He does say, I'll never eat again if it offends my brother.
[00:46:17] Speaker A: But I do think he doesn't say, so. Then I'm like, I'm making this declaration this day forward.
[00:46:23] Speaker B: Yes. He did not actually lay it down. Yeah, no. And I think, too, as it pertains to that, one of the things that I really appreciate, again, the APostle Paul, Galatians 5. And again, he's talking about another symbol at the time, but circumcision. And the church was divided over this act. And in Galatians 5, 6, he says this, for in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision Nor uncircumcision counts for anything. Here's the principle. But only faith working through love.
So is there a way for me to enjoy alcohol in a measure of faith that is not self serving and selfish?
[00:47:08] Speaker A: Right.
[00:47:08] Speaker B: I think there is and I think Jesus did that.
I also think there are many ways for people to pursue alcohol that is self serving and selfish or from a lack of faith, or both. And I would say to that person, don't do that.
[00:47:26] Speaker A: Right, right.
[00:47:26] Speaker B: I mean that's not wise, that's not helpful, that's not going to help you. And in fact, you're sinning.
[00:47:30] Speaker C: Yeah. Amen. And I think, Nathan, to your earlier point, that there's two underlying realities there in Paul's admonition to not harm the weaker brother. One is he's writing to a church community implying that there's already bonds of level of church, covenantal permanence so that you know each other. You know, what if I forgot the second fundamental thing?
[00:47:56] Speaker A: You'll think of it, it was a good first fundamental.
[00:47:58] Speaker C: We'll just say, let me think of it.
[00:48:00] Speaker A: It was just one.
[00:48:01] Speaker B: Actually there's only one fundamental point.
[00:48:03] Speaker C: Oh. And if that's true, then I think that that means that that directly applies to prior knowledge of a weaker conscience and a purposeful breaking of that within the church community, which I think frees the believer from saying, you know, so far as you're not in a public position and haven't covenanted, not. But so that frees us from believer from going out, you know, I think to a restaurant and having a glass of wine, from not having to, to wonder, oh, I don't know those people, but am I going to offend them? I don't think that's the point.
[00:48:38] Speaker B: Right.
[00:48:38] Speaker C: I think the point is I would agree with that offending the weaker conscience of a brother that, you know, that's why he uses brother.
[00:48:44] Speaker B: Right.
[00:48:44] Speaker C: And so I wanted to freeze anybody from like, oh man, I don't know these people. I don't think that's the point.
[00:48:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:48:50] Speaker B: And I would to the other side of this to be courteous, you know, like again, we need to be thick skinned enough as the people of God and settled enough in our personal convictions that if we see someone doing something, that's not what we would do. So just for example, if I see somebody again out at a restaurant and they have a glass of wine or a beer, I'm not looking at them and thinking, okay, probably need to practice church discipline on that person. You know, we need to get ready to think about how we're going to get rid of them. I don't. That thought never even runs through my mind. We need to again extend grace and withhold judgment when we don't know the full context and the facts. And so there needs to be him
[00:49:36] Speaker A: swinging from the chandeliers.
[00:49:38] Speaker B: That's a different story.
[00:49:39] Speaker A: I mean, that's Matthew 18.
But seriously, I mean, I think that's, that's actually kind of the point.
[00:49:44] Speaker B: That is the point. That's exactly the point.
[00:49:46] Speaker A: I mean, and then you would actually. Yeah, you would just. Matthew 18, that junk, right. You would be like, all right, let's go to brother. And then they can't respond and you take another person and they don't. You go to the church. And then, I mean, it's actually laid out.
[00:49:55] Speaker B: Well, that's right.
[00:49:56] Speaker A: That's really clear. I think there's a way for a believer to practice spirit led moderation in a way that's good.
If I didn't think that, then I would wish that the Bible had just prohibited alcohol outright. And what I mean is your abstinence from alcohol for the right reasons can and should be exemplary.
In other words, you've struggled with it and you go, you know what? This, this is something I'm actually going to set as a besetting sin, right.
That sets an example to people in a good way, I think, to go, you know what, flee from sin, temptation from temptation. And so if there are particular areas. But on the other side of that, I think there's a way to practice moderation in a way that's exemplary and goes, you know what, a person who walks by the spirit actually doesn't have to be enslaved to wine in drunkenness, but actually could have a couple glasses of wine and that's that, you know, and doesn't have to be like the culture that we were talking about at the lake, this drunkenness lifestyle. I actually think you can. Christians can be a contrast to that and walk wisely and walk, enjoy the gifts God's given, but do in a way where it's like nobody ever goes, that guy got kind of lit last night, right?
Whether you would never say that because they didn't, because they walk wisely with it and they enjoyed it and that was that. So I'm just saying I think both of those actually are important there.
[00:51:25] Speaker B: No, I think that's good. And we can wrap up with maybe a couple of practical ways to think about when should we abstain. One of the things that I do think for those that do choose freedom Again, which can be a good thing, just to be in a position where you don't say, there's never a situation where I would never abstain. I will enjoy my freedom. Yeah, I'm sorry. Where I would abstain, I will always enjoy my freedom. That's my right.
I think that's a dangerous posture.
But to the teetotaler side, again, I would say this.
It is interesting that Jesus says he will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until when he's with
[00:52:06] Speaker A: us in the kingdom.
[00:52:07] Speaker B: At some point, you're apparently going to drink some alcohol.
And so that's a humbling position for the teetotaler to just admit. And again, I think humility serves us well in these moments. Having said that, when might be some places where you would say, these are some pretty obvious scenarios where it would probably be wise to think about abstinence for at least a moment.
[00:52:29] Speaker C: Yeah, for me, I can.
Yeah. Breakfast, lunch.
[00:52:35] Speaker A: I'm just gonna put it right out. Touche. Breakfast.
[00:52:37] Speaker B: Yes. Okay, fair enough.
[00:52:38] Speaker C: Yeah. I think for me, it's a deeply personal one.
And there's two, really, a couple main reasons I don't participate in alcohol. One is, you know, as a. As a pastor, a public leader, I'm aware that every action I do or do not do gives consent for someone else to do or not do that said thing.
And I try to wield that really carefully.
But down the line from that, I think that in recognition of my own temperament, there are significant addictive patterns in my family's history.
And even I really enjoy sweet tea. And it's hard for me to say no. So I just think it's personally wise for me not even to try to said such thing. But really, the one that I think about more often than not is in honor of my parents.
My parents, both of them grew up in situations where alcohol led to insane carnage in their homes, divorces, and all kinds of things. My mom's dad died of alcoholism.
And, you know, if my parents and I think that this is an honorable thing, you might say, well, you left and cleft. But I think that the call to honor them is worth it.
If my parents, you know, knew that I. I mean, even the slightest bit of alcohol, if they knew, I mean, it, it would severely hurt them. And I just don't think that's worth it. I don't think it's worth it at all. Even if, you know, they're very teetotalers, I think that is a position that is not grounded. I think it's Worth honoring my parents, because alcohol for them is a sign of significant pain.
So I think it's wise to abstain. And I think that could apply more than just my situation.
[00:54:42] Speaker B: Yeah, that's good. I mean, so I typed up a little list and tried to put some together, you know, moments to consider abstaining. You know, a younger believer may misunderstand or imitate your behavior. I think that's a real thing to ponder.
You brought up the wife scenario. You know, your drinking could damage trust with your family.
It's not worth straining your marriage for a beer. It's just not in the same breath. I can with integrity, say, it's not worth straining your marriage over a football game. Don't watch football if it's going to strain your marriage. Figure out a better way to lead your family and love your wife and do other things.
The setting that you're in may make excess or temptation more likely. I mean, there's certain scenarios where, let's just face it, you're going to be a little less tempted. You could enjoy this in this particular setting, and again, not be a drunkard or not be a glutton, whatever the case may be.
And so just to be aware of that, okay, what kind of setting am I in? Where am I at? Am I with other believers that are going to help hold me accountable? Am I with somebody that's probably going to urge me and encourage me to drink more than I should? What does that look like? And so to weigh those things out, and then I think another one that does matter is your witness would be unnecessarily compromised.
If there's a place where you know for a fact you've put yourself out there as a Christian, and then for whatever reason, the cultural setting you're in would say alcohol or being around alcohol is more sinful. I think it's worth weighing that out. Okay, what am I doing? Is this freedom worth sacrificing this witness? And again, that takes a lot of discernment. That takes a lot of wisdom. Those are not easy moments, but I think they're just ways I would encourage you to think about. Maybe these are moments I should abstain.
[00:56:31] Speaker C: Yeah. And I think to just maybe add a little flesh to your idea of setting, which I think is wise, it's like, yeah, maybe if you're a young person and single and you live alone, maybe not the best idea to have alcohol in your house.
No one's there to give you any accountability. No one will really ever know. Maybe not your best idea. Or you work an insanely high stress job and, you know, the temptation to have excess when you get home, maybe just don't. Don't do it. Don't even have it there.
[00:57:01] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:57:03] Speaker A: I think what I want to wrap up with is a challenge to those who would abstain and a challenge to those who would partake to grow in wisdom in your position on that, to grow in grace in how you view somebody who doesn't quite stand where you stand, and to grow in wisdom and understanding on why you think that way. Yeah.
And to read God's word and. And hold it all out in front of you, let that tension even be there. A little bit of God doesn't forbid it, but he. He warns a lot about it. Right. And so for those who partake and for those who abstain, I actually also think that talking with your children about it is very important versus pretending like it doesn't exist.
[00:57:49] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:57:49] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:57:50] Speaker B: I mean, I would agree with both things of what you guys have said, and I think I would wrap this by just kind of saying this.
I think the biblical tension is there, and in part, it is a test of your character and your faith and your willingness to yield to Jesus Christ in whatever way that looks like. And so I think that's a part of the question again, is 1 Corinthians 10:31. It's over said and it's overdone, but whether you eat or drink or whatever you do do, all to the glory of God. And so I think that's one of the governing questions.
Sometimes I will pause because my temptation is not alcohol. My temptation is the extra piece of pie. Right. So can I eat this other piece of pie to the glory of God? If not, probably shouldn't have it.
And so I think that would be my final admonition is really just pause and honestly ask yourself, does this glorify God or not? And if the answer is no, have the integrity to obey.
[00:58:56] Speaker C: I already said my last word.
[00:58:58] Speaker A: Okay, good. We'll see if this episode ever makes the light of day or not after this conversation.
We hope that this has been encouraging to you and.
And really, I think our prayer and our hope is that you would be rooted in God's word and God's will, that you would walk by his spirit and that you would press into the Christian community of believers that offer love, growth, accountability, encouragement, and all those things. So that really, I think, is what we hope that this episode and really all the episodes do for you as a believer. Until next time, further up and further in, we'll see you soon.
[00:59:46] Speaker C: Sa.
[01:01:04] Speaker B: It.
Ra.
