Episode Transcript
[00:00:16] Speaker A: Rather, train yourself for godliness. For while bodily training is of some value, godliness is of value in every way as it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come.
Welcome to Word and Flesh, a podcast for Riverview Baptist Church from the elders of Riverview Baptist Church. And I'm glad you've joined us. Thanks again for all those that have been regularly listening. We hope this is an encouragement to you.
Today's episode, we're going to be talking about discipline, about spiritual disciplines. And the reason we decided to talk about that is because this summer we've been challenging, our elders, have been challenging Riverview to some spiritual disciplines, to practice some spiritual disciplines, particularly memorization of scripture and fasting.
Fasting is a particularly interesting one. Maybe a lot of people have memorized scripture, but there are some folks, I'm sure, that have not fasted, at least not for a spiritual purpose.
And so we wanted to talk a little today about the spiritual value of spiritual disciplines. Not just spiritual value, actually. It says for this life and the life to him, the spiritual and whole, whole person value of the spiritual disciplines. And also address some of the ways that they can go awry, address some of the questions people have about, well, isn't that legalism? If you say I have to do this thing, or if I'm doing this thing, I think I'm earning God's favor. We want to address some of those questions and really discuss then some of the spiritual disciplines that we'll be practicing this summer and that Christians should be pressing into implementing into their daily lives.
So I already did the welcome, but welcome. Good to have Pastor Michael Bean here.
[00:01:55] Speaker B: Yep, glad to be here.
[00:01:56] Speaker A: And Pastor Ryan Anderson here.
[00:01:58] Speaker C: Let's do it.
[00:01:58] Speaker A: I'm one of the elders at Riverview Baptist Church, Nathan Bechtold. Again, thanks everybody for joining us. Okay, so I started that passage, or I started us off by reading from 1 Timothy, chapter 4, and that was in verses 7 and 8.
Also good ones. If you're doing memorization, memorize those.
But the Bible is full of encouragements and exhortations to train yourself or to do things that take effort in order to see yourself spiritually formed.
And that's kind of an interesting idea because again, we're so tempted to think like, as this dichotomy, right? Like, well, there's the spiritual and there's the physical. And oftentimes people think, well, then they don't touch, right?
There's my life and then there's my spiritual life. But of course, we know that that's not true.
You are a spiritual being that is also a physical being. And so the stuff you do with your body obviously affects you spiritually and vice versa. Right. So anyways, that's a long way of saying the Bible really is very consistent in admonishing us to do things externally, like with our body, that shape us spiritually. So, I don't know, talk about that for a second, Michael. And maybe the value of that, or maybe you just want to go a totally different direction than the one I'm going, which is fine as well.
[00:03:27] Speaker B: Yeah, well. And I think one of the reasons we wanted to jump into the idea of spiritual disciplines is to really honestly juxtapose it against spiritual legalism.
Because anytime that you start talking about, hey, there's an expectation to memorize Scripture or, hey, you should read your Bible every day, or yeah. How long are you spending in prayer? What does your prayer life look like?
I think thoughts of, is this legalistic? Why are we doing what we're doing? Is this earning us something from God? All of those questions start to pop up. And so then if you add in a layer, like we are this summer to say, hey, as a church family, we're going to pursue this idea of fasting that almost sounds cultish to some people's ears. Yeah.
[00:04:17] Speaker A: I could understand why for folks especially have not been around that within Christian life.
[00:04:22] Speaker B: Right. And so I think the purpose in my mind is, okay, let's differentiate. What is spiritual discipline or what are the spiritual disciplines? And then what is spiritual legalism? What are those two things, and how do they fit together or look different?
[00:04:38] Speaker A: Okay, Brian, any initial thoughts on that juxtaposition and the why?
[00:04:44] Speaker C: I don't have any initial thoughts on the juxtapositions, but I do have thoughts on why any of this matters at all, which is the heart is deceitful above all else, and so we need to feed it with the good and true and holy.
And that is the discipline of the Christian life, which is to fill the reservoir of my heart with springs of living water, so that every day I'm drawing out life, not drawing out crud.
And I was thinking of Proverbs 4.
Keep your heart with all vigilance, for from it flow the springs of life.
Other translations say, above all else, guard your heart.
And I think that's what spiritual disciplines is getting at. That's why they're so important.
[00:05:41] Speaker B: Absolutely. It's one of the ways we guard our hearts.
Yeah. So I think just defining your terms is helpful.
Thinking about spiritual disciplines versus spiritual legalism.
One of the things that I think confuses people sometimes is the idea or term discipline. We all understand what discipline is.
There's an effort we need to expend in order to achieve a certain end. Right. That you're going to have to discipline your body. If you want to exercise and be in shape, you're going to have to do certain things that aren't always pleasant but ultimately provide good fruit. Now, when we talk about spiritual disciplines, really what we're referring to in my mind is a practice of trusting and pursuing what the old Puritans used to call the means of grace, the common means of grace to help shape our hearts and inform our hearts to love God, know Him, obey him and see him more clearly. So the common means of grace, I would just say think of those as the tools God has given you to help you know him. So what are just a few of those?
[00:06:51] Speaker A: I mean the two that you always get, no matter what age group you're teaching, starting at like age 7 or 8 and up, if you go like, what are things that we should do to grow closer to God? Which these are right answers. But these are like the easy, the low hanging fruit, which is the ones I'm going to take. Yeah, take them or read your Bible and pray.
[00:07:07] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:07:07] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:07:08] Speaker B: That's good.
[00:07:09] Speaker A: It's funny though, because those are the two that. And I mean we talk about those probably disproportionately. I mean, not, maybe not in a bad way, but I just mean those are the ones we talk about a ton.
[00:07:18] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:07:19] Speaker A: Those are not the only two.
[00:07:20] Speaker B: They are not the only two, but
[00:07:21] Speaker A: those are the ones that again, children will tell you, you know, when we're in middle school, small group, you know, on Wednesday nights or something else. All right, you know, what are some things that we do to, you know, grow closer to the Lord, to have him shape us into Christ likeness? What are some things? And they'll go read your Bible and it'll be quiet and like pray. I'm like, yes, these are good.
Good start, buddy.
[00:07:45] Speaker B: Right.
[00:07:45] Speaker A: So yeah, anyways. But there are more than that. So those are a couple.
[00:07:48] Speaker B: Those are the, the main two. Those are, I would say are primary. What else?
[00:07:52] Speaker A: Well, another primary one is obviously fasting is 1o meant I wanted to add up. Another primary one is gathering with the
[00:07:58] Speaker C: saints, gathering with the corporate worship.
[00:08:00] Speaker B: Absolutely. It's a common means of grace.
[00:08:03] Speaker A: So go ahead.
[00:08:04] Speaker C: Sorry, Ryan, confession, Sabbath rest, even solitude.
[00:08:10] Speaker B: And then what we're encouraging, you know, Bible memory, memorization.
And I think those are the main Ones that we've kind of collectively put together. So practicing those is then the, in my mind, a kind of more holistic picture of spiritual disciplines. Now, what is spiritual legalism?
In my mind, that is then not practicing just those disciplines in order to know God, serve him, love him, live for him.
It is the practice of relying on your own religious performance to earn God's pleasure or favor or kindness.
[00:08:46] Speaker A: Yeah, it's the why you're doing it. Right. I mean, that's what it does, ultimately, because again, people use the word legalism. What does that term mean? Like, that one even gets just thrown around as this, like, this basket term that just really. People that want to criticize a thing will just say, that's legalism. And it's assumed that you can just say that. And that way I'm saying, well, then I don't have to do that thing. Right. But what actually is legalism in, like, the bad sense, like the legalism we should avoid? What is it? I think it's essentially saying, I'm earning God's favor or ultimately salvation through repeating a series of activities. Correct?
[00:09:28] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:09:28] Speaker A: And it's when we know salvation is by grace through faith in Christ.
[00:09:31] Speaker B: Right. And I mean, it comes from the idea that literally, legalism is referring to what Paul battles against in Galatians in particular and in Romans as well, where you are looking to the law of the Old Testament as the source of your justification before God.
And so that is true biblical legalism, which is most of us aren't wrestling with that per se. And there's not many people here that are worried about whether or not their clothing has mixed materials. Right.
And whether that's offending God. Most of us, then what we do, to Nathan's point is we look at something we don't like. Someone will tell us, hey, this is a good practice or maybe even a best practice when it comes to the Christian life.
And sometimes be really forceful about that. And another person may look at that and say, well, that's legalism. I'm not doing that.
And I think that's one of the great errors that a lot of people fall into is one extreme or the other. It's the extreme of, I've got to do this and God will like me more.
Or the extreme of, hey, man, all is grace. We're saved by grace, and I can do whatever I want to do.
[00:10:38] Speaker A: And again, I think, you know, spiritual disciplines are hard.
[00:10:43] Speaker B: That's why they're called disciplines.
[00:10:44] Speaker A: Yes, yes.
Bodily discipline is hard. You know, like working out, eating wisely you know, saying no to certain things. Again, so if you translate it to the sort of just normal daily stuff, I actually think that in many ways we're a fairly undisciplined time, culture, society because there's so much of like, well, just, you know, like, do whatever, like fulfills you and all this stuff. But we still all have things that we want. And there's generally only one way to get there, other than cheating, is to go through a series of repeated steps to get that outcome. So we know what discipline is. That's my point. And we do it in terms of everything from exercise to eating to things in our home, things in our work, all that kind of stuff. Everybody's familiar with disciplines and they're familiar with the fact that they are difficult.
And so we just, it's like when we get to our Christian faith, there's this temptation to go, well, that's hard. That must be legalism. Right?
That's where I'm going with that, is it is hard.
That's good.
The hard stuff is good. I mean, that's why again, if it wasn't hard, we probably wouldn't even really need the encouragement to do it in scripture. Right. It'd be like, well, you're gonna do it anyway, so what does it matter? But that's why Paul tells Timothy, train yourself for the purpose of godliness. Right?
[00:12:08] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:12:09] Speaker A: You need to do this intentionally on purpose.
[00:12:12] Speaker B: Absolutely. And I do think to that end, the Bible is full of exhortations or even commands that pertain to the disciplines in some way or pertain to the importance of you as a Christian making an effort to pursue God in faith by grace, and recognizing you're already saved, you're already in.
And in light of that, as Paul says, pray always or pray without ceasing. All right? And so give thanks. Do these things regularly.
You know, even in our theme this year, in terms of growing in grace, our primary memory verse that we're going to look at next month says, make every effort then to add to your faith knowledge. And so again, make effort. Make every effort to do these things.
[00:13:02] Speaker A: Anyone want to say among the list of spiritual disciplines that we mentioned, one that either A has been particularly significant and formative for you, maybe even in recent times or.
[00:13:13] Speaker C: Before we do that, go ahead. I would just like to hear somebody's take on what are some modern day examples of legalism versus what gets accused of legalism today that isn't.
[00:13:30] Speaker A: Well, let's think on that for a second.
[00:13:33] Speaker C: I have my own idea.
[00:13:34] Speaker A: Throw that one out there and I didn't have any thoughts in my head.
[00:13:36] Speaker B: Well, I mean, if you have your own, then yeah, I'll give you one.
So as a pastor, you know, and Ryan and I are paid pastors, telling our people at Riverview you should attend church most days, most Sundays in the year, the overwhelming majority, you should be at your local church.
[00:13:59] Speaker C: Christians go to their local church. Yeah, that's legalism. Pastor Michael.
[00:14:04] Speaker B: Yeah, I know it's not.
Why not?
[00:14:09] Speaker C: Because, and this is where I was trying to get to legalism is I'm attaching something to the faith to accomplish your justification, which is, to Michael's point, what they were doing in the New Testament. Well, we're going to attach the Old Testament law about meat or this or that, and you fulfilling that law is actually accomplishing your justification. That's legalism.
Legalism is not, hey, this is what scripture demands, so do it.
But I do think some modern day examples of legalism are, for example, you can't cut your hair ever. And if you do, you're in sin.
Those are real in the church, in fundamental circles, which I have great respect for, but those are real.
[00:14:56] Speaker A: Sure. Yeah.
[00:14:57] Speaker C: But someone saying, hey, you need to go to church, you ought to memorize scripture, you ought to be in consistent prayer, that's not legalism.
What we're not saying is if you don't do those, what we're not saying is you aren't saved.
What we are saying is if you don't do those, your spiritual life will just be less vital. It'll be less joyful, it'll be less alive than if not.
[00:15:18] Speaker A: I think, I struggle to think of, I am aware of in some very fundamentalist type circles among whom there are some genuine, obviously genuine people who love the Lord.
I can think of some examples in those where I would go, I think you guys have made something essential to salvation that's not essential to salvation.
[00:15:37] Speaker B: Right.
[00:15:38] Speaker A: I actually struggle a little bit to think of examples in broadly evangelical life. And I think I'm wondering if that's simply because we're not very good at spiritual disciplines. We're undisciplined people. To my point earlier, we don't actually, we've leaned so hard into, I'm not going to say justification by faith, but just into like the modern individualist, self actualizing.
Don't tell me what I can and can't do. I'm my own individual, I'm my own authority, whatever. We've leaned so hard into that that I actually think that that's More where you could find errors over in that world. Yeah. Right now in a lot of evangelicalism, then you're going to find a lot of rigid, legalistic type things. But I think that because of that, that's the reason some folks have a knee jerk reaction to when you go, you need to be doing this thing and it's like, whoa, you know. Well, it's because that's so, you know, uncommon to be, to be saying that. So anyways, there's my thought on that.
[00:16:44] Speaker B: That's good. I mean, other.
Another example, you know, this is a denominational difference, but you know, there are some denominations that would more or less attach baptism directly to. Oh yeah, salvation.
You've got to be baptized or your salvation is in question.
[00:17:02] Speaker A: Baptism. Some will attach speaking in tongues to salvation like that. You don't have this, the Holy Spirit if you haven't spoken in tongues. And then they conjure up all these crazy manifestations to make sure that you're saved.
[00:17:14] Speaker B: Yeah. And for us, I think baptism is an interesting one. It's in our name. We are Baptists and you, to be a member of our church, do need to be baptized by immersion.
But we're not attaching salvation to that.
We can say with confidence and integrity, a person can be saved without being baptized.
[00:17:37] Speaker A: Right.
[00:17:38] Speaker B: We just believe that the gateway into the church is baptism. And so, yeah, but I think there are many actually, if you start to really go through some of these things throughout church history and over the years, there have been different iterations of legalism that have crept in and out of the church.
[00:17:55] Speaker A: I would say one other one within Catholicism in some places is things like regular taking of communion.
There's some things like that where there's this, and I'm not an expert in that theology, Catholic theology, but where it's like if you miss or you haven't done it in a while or whatever, then there's this sort of concern about the eternal state of your soul kind of thing.
And again, the Lord's Supper of communion is vital, is extremely important to the life of the believer. Yes, but it doesn't, it's not salvific.
It's not the thing that saves you. Right. And so that's just another example of one that sometimes gets, it gets pushed over the line where it's like, no, no, it's extremely important. But don't push it over into the line of the bucket of things that if you don't do this or with on this frequency or whatever that you're like, yeah, you're Eternally doomed. So, anyways.
[00:18:56] Speaker B: No, that's great.
And so to that end, John Piper has a great quote on this kind of an idea, because he would say unapologetically to his church, you should read your Bible every day and you should pray every day.
No exceptions, no excuses.
[00:19:18] Speaker C: That's legalism.
[00:19:19] Speaker B: Exactly. He said he heard the cry legalism.
And what he said to that in response was, would you tell your doctor it was legalism if he told you, you must eat every day and you must breathe regularly or you will die?
Which.
The word is our bread. It is the living bread of life to hear and know the words of God.
Jesus is the bread of life, and he is in many ways present in the pages of Scripture through the person of the Holy Spirit. And so we find life as we read the Word of God. And the same thing, we pray and we commune with God, and it gives us life and joy and peace. And so to recommend and to say to Christians, do this every day, do this as often as you can, is not legalism. It's just saying, this is where life is. This is where joy is.
[00:20:14] Speaker C: Yeah. And I'll just say, I've said this before, and it may not land well, but I don't care. I guess, you know, no one bats an eye when they're hitting. Coach says you need to hit a thousand baseballs a day to become a better batter.
But all of a sudden, when we say, read your Bible every day and pray, all of a sudden that's offensive and judgmental and legalism.
[00:20:36] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:20:37] Speaker C: When in fact, we're just saying, to Michael's point and to that coach's point, hey, if you really want to be a better battery, this is what you got to do.
And if you really want to be a more faithful, prepared follower of Jesus, do these things.
I think of the analogy of a fire.
The fire of legalism says that your own doing is the fire.
You are the very fire.
But the fire of faith says no justification by faith is the fire.
Jesus is the fire. He sustains the faith in you.
And the wood of that fire, the kindling of that fire is prayer, is Bible memory, is Bible intake. The spiritual disciplines fan into flame the fire. They aren't the fire. And if you want the fire to keep burning, it needs good wood.
And that's what the disciplines are.
[00:21:24] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:25] Speaker A: Yeah, Good.
[00:21:26] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay. Yeah, go ahead.
[00:21:28] Speaker A: No, you go ahead.
[00:21:29] Speaker B: I was going to say, I just think that. I think that does hopefully put the two closely together so that you can see the differences between spiritual, legalism, and spiritual disciplines. And now I think just talking about, you know, in particular, each one of those as much as we can. And then I would like us to hit, you know, certainly Bible memory and fasting while we're here.
[00:21:53] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay. Well, let's start there. Let's just start with Bible memory.
Let's see. Is there any scripture that tells us that we ought to be hiding God's word in our heart or anything?
[00:22:07] Speaker C: How about the longest chapter in the entire bible?
[00:22:11] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:22:12] Speaker C: Psalm 119.
[00:22:14] Speaker A: Psalm 119.
[00:22:15] Speaker C: I'll hide these words in my heart that I might not sin against you.
[00:22:18] Speaker A: Yeah. You can literally turn to any verse in Psalm 119 and it is celebrating God's Word.
[00:22:24] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:22:25] Speaker A: Which is.
[00:22:26] Speaker C: Well, also, if you look at 1 Timothy 4, just take your eyes up a little higher. Verse 6.
Being trained in the words of faith and of good doctrine. In other words, what are you. How are you trained in something? Repetition. Doing it over and over and over again. In what? The words of faith. In other words, God's Word.
[00:22:44] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:22:44] Speaker C: Repeat it over and over again. Remember it.
[00:22:47] Speaker B: Or be transformed by the renewing of your mind. How do you renew your mind and participate with the Lord in that process?
Probably fill it with scripture.
[00:22:57] Speaker A: Yeah. What should you be washing over the grooves of your mind?
[00:22:59] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right.
[00:23:01] Speaker A: Scripture. We know that the things that we think about transform us. We just know this.
The things you dwell on change. You so dwell on scripture. I mean, again, it's like scripture tells us to do this and then you just. If you've lived more than a few minutes, you know from experience that these things are true.
And then I have Joshua 1, verse
[00:23:26] Speaker C: 8,
[00:23:30] Speaker A: and it says, this book of the law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night. So that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous and then you will have good success.
[00:23:43] Speaker C: Yeah. And the connection that Joshua is making there, obviously is if you don't know, you can't do.
And if you don't know the words first, if they're not on your lips, then you. You. You can't be careful to live according to them. And this is the, this is the beauty of scripture memory and Bible intake and all these things that, that every day, by nature of being human, we make decisions consciously and subconsciously.
And if the spirit's in us, the consciously ones, they're a little easier to get to the right place.
[00:24:17] Speaker A: Right.
[00:24:19] Speaker C: The dangerous ones are the subconscious Decisions. In other words, they're just drawing from the well that's there. They're drawing from the heart or from
[00:24:27] Speaker A: established patterns in your day and your life that you haven't all these adjusted and. Yeah, the.
[00:24:34] Speaker C: The key to making better subconscious. In other words, when you're caught on your feet, what do you do?
[00:24:40] Speaker A: Right.
[00:24:42] Speaker C: Know God's word.
Be filled up from your head to your toe with the word of God.
[00:24:47] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. What spills out? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's good.
I mean, you mentioned Psalm 119. I used to think maybe I already said this on an episode or I said in our life group. I'm just saying it again. Either way, I used to find Psalm 119 kind of odd and a little boring. And also because it was the longest chapter, it felt like when I was like, well, I'll just read some of the other psalms.
If I'm turning to the psalms. You wanted to go to a psalm and either read some psalm of confession or a psalm of praise. Right. Or if you're really mad at somebody, maybe one of the imprecatory psalms, perhaps. No, I'm just kidding.
Am I? And so.
But Psalm 119 is. Every verse is a celebration of God's law. God's law. How I love your law.
And over time I've come to understand why that's such a singularly distinct chapter in psalms and in the Bible. And. And it's the more that you not only meditate on, but let God's law wash over you and work itself out through your hands and your feet and your life and your lips. The more you go, wow, this brings abundant life.
Right. And so then you go, oh, that's why he's so obsessed with it in Psalm 119. Because living according to it has, like in Joshua has brought him good.
And so to your point, meditating on it and letting it flow out of us consciously and subconsciously is the way to that.
[00:26:29] Speaker C: Apparently Jesus did that because his mouth overflowed with the words of the Old Testament.
[00:26:34] Speaker A: Yeah, right.
[00:26:35] Speaker B: Yeah, well, and I think too. So then let's just do this. What are some of the benefits of both Bible memory and Bible reading? Like, what are just some of the practical benefits or trying to convince someone
[00:26:47] Speaker A: having an an Like. To me, the most obvious one is having a response. And this is what I encourage my son in as well. Having a response to a situation that's fairly specific.
The Bible addresses so many specific temptations and struggles and battles and fears and all the stuff, right. As you hide God's word in your heart. You actually have a pre built, true and good answer in those moments to that thing versus going, I don't know, what should I do here?
[00:27:20] Speaker B: Right, right.
[00:27:21] Speaker A: Being kind of lost and bewildered. And yeah, absolutely. To me, that's kind of my primary answer to that.
[00:27:27] Speaker C: But yeah, I'm thinking of it less intellectually and more experientially.
I'm thinking of the men in my life that just literally overflow with the word of God and they have just a warmth and a tender presence about them that overflows all the time. And I want that to be true of me. But I also think just a benefit day to day is especially for men who are called to lead in whatever spheres for me, my marriage, my kids, pastoring, if I don't do the business. I have a quote written in my other bible from George Mueller. He says the first and most important business of man is to make themselves happy in God every day.
And I think about that because if I don't do those things, I have nothing to give my wife, I have nothing to give my kids.
I may have something to give, but it surely won't be the overflowing word of God. It will be my own, whatever I can come up with in my own fickle brain at that moment. And so you want to be used of God to help other people. You got to be filled up with the word of God.
[00:28:45] Speaker B: That's good. Yeah. And the reason I want us to do this is I just think, I mean really the benefits are more than we can say in a podcast. I mean, I think of Psalm 119, that the law of the Lord rejoices the heart. It gives me joy, especially when I think of the ways God loves me.
It gives me joy when I think of and I get to know more of God's character, that he really is as good as he says he is. And heaven is going to be glorious not because of streets of gold, but because of his presence.
It gives me, it says, it makes wise the simple. I don't know about you, but I'm simple. I need good wisdom. I can screw a lot up really fast. And it helps us be wise as we walk through this daily life.
It helps us identify and hate sin and see sin for what it is rather than be fooled by it and tempted into it over and over and over. I mean, again, the benefits, recalling the benefits of the Lord again help us endure suffering and knowing God will be faithful.
There are so many benefits that we miss out on because we don't eat. We don't consume the word of God.
And I think the image is literally like the person that eats Doritos and grilled cheese all day, every day. And they go to the doctor and they find out they're anemic and they have all these vitamin deficiencies. And the answer is, well, why are you anemic? Why is your faith anemic? Why are you weak Christian?
Maybe it's because you're not eating, or maybe you're eating a lot of junk food.
And so to take the time to be in the word of God.
[00:30:27] Speaker C: Yeah, Amen. I feel like we could talk about the benefits forever.
[00:30:30] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:30:32] Speaker C: You know, I just referred to Proverbs 4 right before Solomon says, keep your heart. He says, sons, listen to the words. In other words, the words of God. And he says, for they are life to those who find them and healing to all their flesh.
I was also just thinking, just, you know, Christians are demanded to live in community.
And one of the things that makes us more able to live in community is if we know what is expected of us according to the word of God, because we've memorized it. I don't know that I'm supposed to forgive unless I remember the Word calls me to.
I don't know I'm supposed to forbear unless the Word, and I know the Word calls me to.
It makes us better able to live in community by faith, with joy, because we know the word of God.
[00:31:16] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:31:18] Speaker A: That's good. Before we move on to another discipline, talk about for a moment ways that you've found to help yourself memorize. Because that is.
It's one thing to say, read your Bible every day and say, okay, well, that's, you know, get up a little earlier, stay up a little or whatever and read my Bible.
Memorizing is uniquely difficult. Yeah, it is for some people. It is harder than other people, too. So let me let. I think we would all just challenge all of our people just because it's hard. Don't give yourself a free pass.
[00:31:55] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:31:56] Speaker A: Don't go. That's a hard one. I'll just read my Bible and I'm gonna just let memorization be for, like, the kids in, you know, kid zone down there. Because, I mean, it is true that kids can memorize literally anything.
[00:32:08] Speaker B: Yeah. Very quickly.
[00:32:09] Speaker A: Massive amounts of things. It's amazing. But you can, too. You can, too. Especially, you know, if you use certain mnemonic devices and things like that. So what are some ways in your home or for yourself or whatever that You've done, like, literal, just practices that have helped you memorize.
[00:32:26] Speaker B: Yeah. So as a family, and this is maybe a little goofy, but it is what it is.
We have a little small whiteboard we keep on our fridge, and we'll write out whatever verse it is that we're going to try to memorize as a family. And each day we read around the dinner table and we erase one word at a time.
And, you know, if it's a good day, we'll erase two or three words. And you might leave the very first letter, especially for one of the little ones that, you know, can barely read, and maybe it's a little harder for them. Just leave that first letter and draw a blank right after it. And we erase those words and, you know, within really a lot of times a week, we've got it down.
[00:33:00] Speaker A: That's a good one. That's like the old songs, you know, like the kids songs where it sings the verse and then it, like, removes one word from the song. You know, I'm not going to sing it, but yeah, it's the same concept. Yeah, it's great. You just start to, you know, all the stuff that. That was filled in there, and it's almost accidental memorization, just doing that. Yeah. Okay. That's a good one. Ryan, you got one.
[00:33:19] Speaker C: I think what I'm memorizing, I try to capture the really mundane times.
Again, a little weird, I'm happy to admit it.
A verse in front of you at the bathroom stall.
Not a bad way to do it.
Capture the mundane times.
I laminated verses and I got them sometimes in the shower. You're like, that's weird. I'm like, but it's mundane times, and there's a lot. There's a lot worse things I could be thinking about.
So I try to capture the mundane times. Even next to me in my office, when I just need a little break from whatever I'm doing, I just turn my head and I have them right there. Just kind of trying to immerse myself in those mundane moments where the typical American just whips their phone out and scrolls, which I'm not. I'm not immune to that. But I try to be really careful when I'm. When I'm really trying to memorize a full chapter or something, which I haven't quite done, but I'm working on it.
I try to just capture the mundane times and get rid of the stuff that would fill my brain otherwise.
[00:34:18] Speaker A: Good.
I have a few.
[00:34:21] Speaker B: Yeah, go ahead.
[00:34:22] Speaker A: 1. And my son's doing this And I've done this with things I've worked on memorizing in the past. Just save the thing as an image and put it as your lock screen on your phone.
[00:34:29] Speaker B: Yeah, that's like.
[00:34:29] Speaker A: That's because you just see it and you're like, oh, I should go through it once.
There's one kind of what you're saying. Visual, intentional, accidental exposures to it. One thing that my mom did for us growing up was she would tape index cards to the mirror in our bathroom.
[00:34:48] Speaker C: Yeah. Capturing the mundane.
[00:34:49] Speaker A: Yeah. And I've done that for my kids or my goodness. Right on the mirror with dry erase marker or something like that.
Another one is as our. With our family. This one works the best for me of any is hand motions. I know it's goofy and if you don't have kids, it feels extra goofy, but you should do it anyways. Actually, I would love to see some, like, older folks in our church just like fully orchestrating hand motions to some of our scripture memory. It really helps. Connecting the physical does help to the thing you're memorizing helps. I've even heard things like, even if you want to create like a little journey, like a physical journey through your house for different parts that you're memorizing. And like you go to the living room for this part and then you walk to the kitchen. Anchoring yourself physically to places helps, for whatever reason, helps your brain grab so that when you're in the living room, you go, oh, it's that, you know, like that verse almost kind of comes into your head. So that one and then the third one is music.
Just listen to music that sings scripture.
[00:35:55] Speaker C: Yeah, that's all.
[00:35:55] Speaker A: There's some great music that sings scripture. I mean, I've listened to quite a few of like Shane and Shane's show. Shane and Shane's Psalms over the years.
Sorry. Wow. I'm struggling with talking Shane and Shane's psalms over the years.
And there are sections of psalms that I have memorized thanks to Shane and Shane.
[00:36:14] Speaker C: Yeah, me too.
[00:36:15] Speaker A: And then, I mean, actually one that is great and it's a different genre of music is Handel's Messiah. Like if you're needing some, like, background music to work or every year, as soon as it's Thanksgiving and you need Christmas music or whatever, play some Handel's Messiah. It basically just sings scripture the whole time.
[00:36:33] Speaker B: That's good.
[00:36:33] Speaker C: I think, engaging as many senses as you can.
Writing, reading, hearing.
[00:36:39] Speaker B: I think the other thing that smelling. I don't know about that.
[00:36:43] Speaker A: Cook while you memorize. Yeah.
[00:36:45] Speaker B: One thing that helps me, especially if you're just starting out, is use your quiet time. So the things. As you're reading the Bible and you see a verse and it pricks your heart or it encourages your soul.
That's the one. Memorize that one.
Because here's the deal. When my heart is already engaged, it's so much easier for my brain to follow along when my heart says, man, that deeply encouraged me. God used that.
It's natural just then to hide that word in my heart.
And so I would just say, use your Bible time as you're reading.
When. When there's a verse that really strikes you, write that sucker down. Go ahead and start working on that one. That'll come to you faster than most.
[00:37:31] Speaker A: Okay. Anything else on that one?
[00:37:33] Speaker C: Having some accountability always helps.
[00:37:35] Speaker A: Oh, yeah.
[00:37:36] Speaker C: I'm going to be way more likely to memorize the verse if my wife is already doing it. Or vice versa.
[00:37:40] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:37:41] Speaker A: I actually also think, because I think we do this in other areas of life, I think it's okay to give to like.
Like have almost a reward, like an incentive. Like, if I memorize this stretch, we
[00:37:53] Speaker C: might just disagree on that.
[00:37:54] Speaker A: I'm gon.
I don't know. Whatever. I mean, I don't know. I'm just saying, like, this. I did I do this with my children. It really works.
Memorize this swath of stuff and, you know, like, celebrate it is all I'm saying. Celebrate the fact that you've gotten to the end of a memorization stretch.
Listen, anytime I can have, like, a bowl of ice cream as a reward for something. Although I just have that anyway, so
[00:38:17] Speaker C: I just think it's important to remind our kids over and over again, hey, the bowl of ice cream is great.
[00:38:22] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:38:22] Speaker C: But the real reward is know God better.
[00:38:25] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. But we're trying to incorporate all the senses.
Okay. I'm trying to get moving on.
[00:38:30] Speaker B: Moving on. Let's go. Speaking of.
[00:38:32] Speaker A: I want to dwell on. Let's go to fasting. Okay, let's go to fast.
Okay. Fasting. So Matthew 6 is a great one for that. Matthew 6, 16 through 18.
Jesus. This is in the Sermon on the Mount.
[00:38:45] Speaker C: Yep.
[00:38:46] Speaker A: And this is kind of a core passage for sure.
[00:38:49] Speaker B: It comes to fasting. Yes.
[00:38:51] Speaker A: And he says, and when you fast, let's stop there.
[00:38:55] Speaker B: And when.
[00:38:56] Speaker A: When you fast.
[00:38:58] Speaker B: Not if.
[00:38:59] Speaker A: If you ever decide maybe one time you might fast for, like, lunch.
No. He says, and when you fast, do not look gloomy like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces, that their Fasting may be seen by others, truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.
But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, that your fasting may not be seen by others, but by your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees in secret will reward you. I mean, that's a whole sermon. But say a little about that passage.
[00:39:36] Speaker B: Yeah, so just real quick fasting, you know, what is it? What is it not?
We hear about intermediate fasting and all kinds of health fasting and all kinds of ways to curb your diet and the purposes of that.
I think I do want to differentiate just fasting for the purpose of health, which is good in and of itself and not a bad discipline to undertake, versus spiritual fasting, where you are purposefully denying your flesh certain comforts, in this case most specifically food for the cause or sake of directing your mind towards Christ and essentially practicing dependence on the Spirit. And so I think that is the number one difference. I think you can fast and you can do it for a week, and you cannot do it in a way that your heavenly Father is going to reward you in secret because you didn't set your mind on the things of God at all while you did it.
[00:40:38] Speaker A: Yeah.
So, yeah, Distinguishing that from. Yeah, folks are familiar with the idea of fasting, right?
[00:40:44] Speaker C: Yeah. Biblical fasting is for a godly purpose.
[00:40:49] Speaker A: I mean, so fasting can be from a wide variety of things. Usually when we say fasting, we mean from food.
[00:40:57] Speaker C: And same with the scripture. I mean, almost every time, if not every time, it's food, right?
[00:41:01] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:41:01] Speaker A: When it says fasting in the scripture, it means food, although, I mean, again, we would encourage folks to consider fasts from other things. I've actually been talking with my wife about a screen fast for. Absolutely. You got to use them for certain things, but like leisure time screen fast. And so there's some immense benefits. I mean, I don't have to talk about that. That's obvious. Yeah, I think, yeah.
[00:41:25] Speaker C: Fasting is.
It's been important for all people in all times, for all of Christianity.
It's especially important for times when gen. Especially in America, when. When generally we live in. In excess and we just don't really know what it's like on the daily to have our flesh starved.
[00:41:45] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:41:46] Speaker C: To not get what we want, when we want it, how we want it, in the manner which we desire it.
And fasting is a really important way to say God is really good.
When you are in need, he's really good.
And by the way, you actually experience him more Deeply when you focus on him more intently.
Right at Moody, we would often call a fast together related to a spiritual emphasis on campus or something. And.
And I would always remember during those times where there were more than a day or something, thinking, well, I'm not actually as hungry when I'm not thinking about the food, but when I'm thinking about the food, I'm more hungry. You're like, well, thanks for that, Ryan. That's a really profound point. What I mean to say is generally what you're thinking about, you desire.
And when in fasting, you can force yourself to think more intently on Jesus, you'll more desire him. And I think that's a lot of the point.
[00:42:55] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:42:56] Speaker B: I think for me, when I'm fasting, I think Matthew 4, Jesus is being tempted in the wilderness. And the famous quote, man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God. It is reminding me, when I fast, I need spiritual food more than physical food. I need the things of God. If I'm going to live life and actually know abundant, meaningful, rich life, I need to know the things of God more than I need to eat my breakfast in the morning.
That is a radical thought for me because my body tells me, you need to eat that breakfast. And so I think it reorients my mind on things above, not on things below. And that's one of the primary purposes, I do think, other purposes, of fasting. If you go back to the book of Esther and you think, you know, Esther called the entire nation, anyone that knew of their plight, to fast, and you guys, I'm sure, remember the circumstances around that scenario. Why was she asking for that?
[00:44:05] Speaker A: No, there had been a law had been passed that they would all be killed, basically.
[00:44:10] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:44:10] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:44:11] Speaker B: And so it was a solemn pleading before the Lord. Oh, God, spare us.
We as your people, are about to be wiped out if this law is passed.
And so she was going to risk her own life and enter into the king's court without permission. Essentially, yeah. And so she was calling for a fast and for God to intercede. That's another very appropriate time if you're in a solemn season or you need God to move.
It does not guarantee that, but it is a plea to the Lord.
Lord, please intervene. Please move, please work. I need you more than I need this daily bread.
[00:44:47] Speaker A: Yeah. I think the effect of a fast is to remind you of, like, what you're saying, of something that is true. That is true to the core, which is, of course, you do need food to Live.
[00:45:01] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:45:02] Speaker A: And God designed us that way. Right.
But there's this spiritual reminder that Jesus gives, like you said there in Matthew chapter 4.
Jesus is consistent with that, actually, because when he encounters the woman at the well, the disciples had gone off to get food. He has this conversation with the woman at the well. She leaves. They get. Or no, she doesn't leave, they get back. And they're like, why is he talking with this woman? And then some stuff goes down and they go, master, have some food.
And he goes, I have food to eat that you don't.
[00:45:34] Speaker B: You don't even know about.
[00:45:35] Speaker A: And they're like, did he bring a sandwich?
And then he explains it, because they're always so dense, and it's encouraging, actually, their struggles encourage me.
And he goes, my food is to do the will of him who sent me. And so it's that not just one time, there's that reminder that there's something even more deeply nourishing than the food that you put into your body and have to put into your body several times a day.
[00:46:04] Speaker B: Right.
[00:46:04] Speaker A: Again, God designed us that way, and it's good. But then. So then when we fast and you miss a meal or a few meals, you're going to feel hungry and you're going to feel like your body is going to start being angry with you, like speaking out about this injustice that you have committed against it. Right. Like, you feel the hunger and your stomach growls, and you get to, like, you know, sometime after lunch, and you're like, you start kind of like looking around, like, is there anything?
And those are actually the key moments, I think, in the fast that you go, man, is my hunger for God, like my hunger for food after a meal. That's exactly right. And that's the whole. That's like the critical moment, I think, in the fast is those growlings of the stomach, those moments where you hunger. And the hunger is real and it's not bad, but it causes you to turn inward and go, do I hunger and thirst for righteousness in this way? Because that's who Jesus says is blessed. Right. So again, I think that's the core value of a fast, is it is it turns your eyes towards the spiritual. And again, not to do the spiritual physical dichotomy, but it's actually the physical helping the spiritual in that sense. Right.
[00:47:23] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:47:24] Speaker A: The physical pain you endure helps turn you inward to this spiritual hunger that we ought to have.
[00:47:32] Speaker B: Yeah. And as we enter into this season of fasting at Riverview, generally on Thursdays and Fridays, we would encourage, I Mean, if you're healthy and it's not going to be something detrimental for you to participate in, join us on Thursday or Friday. You pick which day works best for you and fast with us. I'm going to be doing that.
And then I think to your point, Nathan, if you're not able to physically participate in a 24 hour fast or whatever the case may be, then to think about can I do a partial day? Or if you can't do anything like that, if for dietary reasons or others, you need to go ahead and eat, participate in a screen fast, participate in some other form of creature comfort that you would normally pursue and you say, yeah, I'm going to give this up and then lay this down in order to set my mind on things above. The worst thing you can do is say, well, I'm going to fast from social media and then just fill all that time watching movies.
Don't waste your time doing that.
[00:48:34] Speaker A: Ryan, do you want to add something on any of that?
I guess the only thing I want to get to. Because we did the flesh on the bones for memorization. Give me a little bit on how to fast for folks that have not done that, maybe even for folks that have done it. Purely thinking about intermittent fasting on the. Is it the same? Is it different? How do you actually fast? What's a good way to start from when to when?
Go into that a little bit.
[00:49:03] Speaker B: Yeah, for me personally, I like sunset to sunset and I think that's consistent with the Jewish original structure. And so essentially once sunset hits. Okay, my fast begins. That generally means missing dinner, then go to bed a little hungry, wake up the next day and essentially you've got to grind it out until sunset the next day. But the dependency for me really hits about noon. I'm hungry. And so it really does help me set my mind on the things of God and recognize the battle against the flesh is real. There is a battle that I'm in at that moment now.
Tips, things that help.
Lots and lots of liquids, lots of water, hydrate. Yes. Drink very, very well.
[00:49:52] Speaker A: Can people have coffee on a fast in your opinion?
[00:49:54] Speaker B: In my opinion, I say it's fine if you want to be.
[00:49:58] Speaker A: I mean, you could fast from coffee, right?
[00:50:00] Speaker B: You could.
[00:50:00] Speaker A: Which maybe would be a good idea.
[00:50:01] Speaker B: That's right. Some people.
[00:50:02] Speaker C: It's definitely not going to help you feel less hungry.
[00:50:04] Speaker B: Exactly. It's not going to take the hunger and.
[00:50:05] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right. Because coffee and caffeine actually an appetite suppressant. Not cheating.
[00:50:11] Speaker B: I think the other thought is, you know, what you eat going into your fast does matter. I would not load up on carbs
[00:50:20] Speaker A: and lots of sugary super heavy carb meal. Like right as the sun is dipping below the horizon, you shovel the last mouthful of eat a bunch of pancakes
[00:50:29] Speaker B: for dinner that evening. Yeah, that's probably not going to go well for you.
[00:50:32] Speaker C: You.
[00:50:32] Speaker B: So yeah, protein, heavy fats, those sort of things going in. And then when you get done, dude, be easier on your stomach coming out of it. Eat some lighter things.
[00:50:42] Speaker A: Nashville hot chicken or something would be good to just like right out of the cage, right?
Or yeah, you kid.
[00:50:50] Speaker B: You kid. Yeah, more like very easy on the stomach. Breads or those sort of things just to kind of come out of it. Lots again, lots of water.
[00:50:59] Speaker A: So yeah, some easily digestible stuff again. I mean some folks will find that like it wasn't that taxing on their body but other, other folks will. And so yeah, that's good. Eating a lighter, I mean if you're doing it sunset to sunset, you could technically have dinner at. I mean my goodness, the sun goes down at like 10pm right now. I like this time. It's like nine actually or 8:30 or nine.
[00:51:17] Speaker B: Yeah, we picked summer solstice. We picked the longest days of the
[00:51:19] Speaker A: year to do this but that's right.
[00:51:21] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:51:21] Speaker A: If you did a winter one sunset to sunset, you're like we fasted for seven hours.
[00:51:24] Speaker B: That's a lot shorter.
[00:51:25] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. But no, I mean you could have dinner you know, early. You have dinner at 6:30 or something. I mean that's I guess normal for my household. That's early. We have dinner crazy late. But you could have dinner at 6:30 or something. If you're doing sunset to sunset or even if you were just doing 24 hours, you have dinner a little early and then you go to bed and it's normal. I think one of the hard things, again, it's not that it's you should never do it, but going to bed with an empty stomach is really hard. So like starting your fast like after lunch or something for example is probably not a good like beginner tip because you're going to be really hungry at bedtime.
[00:51:59] Speaker B: I would agree with that.
[00:51:59] Speaker A: So even eat an early dinner or something and you go to bed and you'll be okay and then you'll get up and you have some coffee or if you drink coffee and or you know, black tea.
[00:52:09] Speaker C: I drink coffee now. Okay.
[00:52:11] Speaker A: Okay.
Welcome to the dark side.
[00:52:13] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:52:14] Speaker A: It has to be dark coffee though. Can you have the cream in the coffee?
[00:52:17] Speaker B: No, the cream in the coffee is a no. No sugar in the coffee is a no. No.
[00:52:20] Speaker A: That's caffeine.
[00:52:21] Speaker B: Those are calories.
[00:52:21] Speaker A: The idea is those are like foods.
[00:52:23] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:52:23] Speaker A: Whereas black coffee. So you could have some black coffee, a little appetite suppressant, and then spend some time in the word, like leverage the moments that you would have spent eating to be in God's word. That's the how. I mean, other times, too. But those are actually great moments to go. I would have normally been feeding my body. Right now. I'm going to feed my spirit with God's word.
[00:52:42] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:52:43] Speaker A: And, you know, that's a good time to work on some memorization, too, for sure.
[00:52:45] Speaker C: Oh, yeah.
[00:52:46] Speaker B: One other quick piece of discussion. Why does Jesus say, when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, that your fasting may not be seen by others, but by Father who sees in secret. Why that teaching?
[00:52:55] Speaker C: Because the Pharisees saw it as a legalistic, hey, look at me. I'm doing it.
I'm doing the spiritual practice. So it does connect to our earlier conversation.
When you're fasting, you probably shouldn't walk around telling everybody you're fasting.
Not probably. You just shouldn't do that.
It's kind of like walking around telling everybody that you're God's gift to the world and you're doing the holy things.
[00:53:18] Speaker A: I mean, sometimes you get invited to lunch and you're gonna be like, yeah,
[00:53:20] Speaker C: of course, that's a little different. I still think there's a way to say, yeah, I can't do it today.
[00:53:23] Speaker A: Yeah, right. Yeah, I'm fasting.
[00:53:26] Speaker C: Don't be prideful about your spirituality is the point.
[00:53:28] Speaker B: That's exactly right. Cause interestingly, again, that is a strange way to turn it into a form of legalism, that, hey, I'm earning things from God, or I'm better than other Christians because I do this and they don't.
[00:53:41] Speaker A: Yeah. And then at the end of that little passage, read that again. Because he says, and your Father who
[00:53:46] Speaker B: season secret will reward you.
[00:53:48] Speaker A: There's a reward?
[00:53:49] Speaker B: What is the reward?
[00:53:50] Speaker A: Well, it's not just ice cream is my thing.
[00:53:53] Speaker B: No, it's not.
[00:53:53] Speaker C: Well, you just argued. It was earlier.
[00:53:55] Speaker A: Well, I'm just saying you could use that as a positive incentive for memorization.
But you could have ice cream with your dessert after you fast.
[00:54:01] Speaker C: Okay, answer the question.
[00:54:04] Speaker A: The reward is. Well, a. The reward is immediate in that you grow closer to the Lord in your walk with him. You're conformed more into the likeness of Christ in your Life and you experience. Experience the now. Blessings of being that way. Right.
And then there's eternal rewards too, which I don't exactly know how to enumerate what those are, but the Bible says that they're there.
[00:54:29] Speaker C: 2 Timothy 4. It holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come.
Yeah, I think.
Well, let's finish the thing on fasting before I take us a different way.
[00:54:39] Speaker A: I think I'm done.
[00:54:40] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:54:41] Speaker B: And I just. I mean, the point of fasting. And so here's one of the things to differentiate, because I think sometimes I've even had people come to me and say, well, can I fast for my health and for the Lord? Can I do both?
[00:54:54] Speaker A: Brian says no. All right, let's take a poll.
[00:54:56] Speaker C: This would be awkward.
[00:54:57] Speaker A: Let's take a poll.
[00:54:58] Speaker B: No, here's the reality.
The motivation of your heart is the motivation of my heart to know. Is he my reward? Is he my very great reward? Do I want to know and honor and love and live for God? Do I want to commune with him more closely? If that's the purpose of your fast, then enjoy the health benefits that come if that other side. The driving force for me is health. And I'm going to tack on a little Jesus.
Yeah, I would say that's not. No, that's not what we're talking about.
[00:55:30] Speaker A: Tack on a little Jesus.
[00:55:32] Speaker B: Just add on a little Jesus.
[00:55:33] Speaker A: Yeah, no, you're right. That's good.
[00:55:35] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:55:35] Speaker B: I think that's fasting. Good.
[00:55:37] Speaker A: Unanimous on that.
[00:55:38] Speaker B: Bible reading and Bible memory and fasting.
[00:55:40] Speaker A: And we're only an hour in, so this is only going to be a three hour podcast today, guys, which you had requested longer episodes. If you want a longer episode, let us know in the comments. If you want a shorter episode, you've actually stopped listening by this point, so it's fine.
Okay, so another one I thought was okay, well, no. Where else do we want to go? I mean, because we're not going to
[00:56:04] Speaker B: hit all the disciplines.
[00:56:05] Speaker A: So is there another one that we want to hit on or. I have a passage I can.
[00:56:08] Speaker C: Well, I was just going to say a very brief comment about generosity, and I think it would be enough for that conversation.
[00:56:13] Speaker A: And actually the one I had is. Goes to that. So go ahead. Perfect.
[00:56:16] Speaker C: The end of verse 18 of Matthew 6 says, and your father, who sees in secret, will reward you.
One of the things that drives me so crazy about modern day generosity is it always has to be celebrated.
[00:56:26] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:56:27] Speaker C: Hey, let me take a selfie of myself with the poor kid in Africa because I'm giving him good stuff. Or let me tell the person I wrote this check.
Or even somebody else does a generous act to you, and then you post it on Facebook and it's like, well, I get what you're trying to do there, but just say thank you.
[00:56:45] Speaker A: Right.
[00:56:45] Speaker C: Because generosity is done in secret.
And that actually is a measure of, like, if you want the recognition, it often is a measure of why you're doing the generous thing.
And it's just a caution to say, you know, we don't have to post on Facebook every time a nice deed is done for us. Just say thank you and know the promise of the scripture that that person is doing it with the right heart and maybe even not. The Lord is going to reward that in eternity.
[00:57:12] Speaker A: Right.
[00:57:13] Speaker C: Don't let your left hand know what your right hand's doing. Do the generous.
[00:57:15] Speaker A: Social media has really made it hard to not be loud about being generous. It's made it hard. It rewards you when you are loud about being generous. You get so many likes and stuff.
[00:57:28] Speaker C: I mean, there's people who have made. There's. There's millionaires on. On social media. They are just giving away tons and tons of money.
[00:57:36] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. To horrible causes. But Jesus says of the Pharisees that they do that, and they. You know, they do all the. They like, make it super big, blow the trumpets in the street and all this kind of. Which is literally the social media of 2,000 years ago. Like, go blow the trumpets in front of them.
And he goes, that's their reward. Don't do that. They got it. I mean, so they might argue that they got some amount of reward. And I guess he's saying they did get a reward, like your reward.
[00:58:06] Speaker B: That's what you're after.
[00:58:07] Speaker A: Your reward was the likes and follows you got there. And Jesus goes, their reward is. Everyone goes, oh, wow, they're so generous. And he goes, the thing is, is that's kind of a garbage reward. But if that's, you know, that's what you got. You got what you. What you were gonna earn there from that instead, like I said, don't let your right hand know what your left hand or left hand know what your right hand is doing.
And your father, who sees in secret, will reward what's done in secret. Absolutely. And, man, if you believe that God's rewards are good, then you should want that over any kind of praise or adoration or anything that you might get from other people. So that's good. I had Isaiah 50, 58. I want to read just A few verses from there.
[00:58:53] Speaker B: Yeah, go for it.
[00:58:54] Speaker A: So Isaiah 58, verse 3. Through a few other verses, we'll see. It says, why have we fasted? And you see it not. This is the people speaking, right? They said, oh, we fasted and you don't see it. Why have we humbled yourselves? And you take no knowledge of it?
And then that's the end of the quote, the people speaking. And then God replies, behold, in the day of your fast, you seek your own pleasure and oppress all your workers. Behold, you fast only to quarrel and to fight and to hit with a wicked fist. Fasting like yours this day will not make your voice to be heard on high. Is such the fast that I choose, a day for a person to humble himself?
In other words, he's saying, that's the fast I choose. Is such a fast a day for a person to humble himself? Is it to bow down his head like a reed and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? Will you call this a fast and a day acceptable to the Lord?
I misstated that. He's saying, you're being loud about it. Don't be loud about it. Here's what he says in verse 6. Is this not the fast that I choose? So sorry, I said that wrong. But to loose the bonds of wickedness, to undo the straps of the yoke, to let the oppressed go free, to break every yoke, is it not to share your bread with the hungry and bring the homeless poor in your house when you see the naked, to cover him and not hide yourself from your own flesh? And he goes on, in other words, this was just to go to your point about generosity and giving.
God actually is pushing them into their fasting really well and making a big show of it. And he's saying, yeah, so actually, what I want is for you to do simple acts of charity and care for one another, like care for your brother. They're among you.
[01:00:30] Speaker B: So let's make this connection, because there is this parallel between fasting and generosity. What is it?
I think it's even in Isaiah 58. It is the denying of the natural fleshly instinct.
The natural fleshly instinct is, hey, I'm going to eat and I want to eat. And that feels good. And the same is true when you give something away in secret.
Where's my reward? I just did something really good.
No one's going to pat me on the back and tell me how nice I am and tell me how kind I am. No, they're not. It's between you and God. And that should be good enough.
It is the killing of that fleshly instinct. Me, feed me, give me, recognize me. That is one of the great benefits of both generosity and fasting. Yeah.
[01:01:16] Speaker A: Yeah. And I've been encouraged from the generosity standpoint by folks that have given, even like within church life at Riverview, that very, very specifically want to give a gift because God's blessed them and they want it to be anonymous.
We're not going to shout their name from the mountaintops anyways. No. But I appreciate when folks have that heart.
[01:01:36] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[01:01:37] Speaker A: That is the heart that God calls us to have. So well done on that.
[01:01:41] Speaker C: I think this is a very easy segue to the other discipline that God also says it's most rewarded in secret, which is prayer.
[01:01:50] Speaker A: Good.
[01:01:51] Speaker C: Go into the inner room.
In other words, the bridal chamber of intimacy. Go into the inner room and meet with the father. Don't pray on the street corner like the hypocrites. Don't use big words like they do on the street corner just so they can be seen by men.
It's not negating that public prayer is important, essential, because in the New Testament it says, devote yourself to the public reading of scripture.
[01:02:11] Speaker A: Yeah. Jesus says, our father ideas, they're going to pray together a lot.
[01:02:16] Speaker C: But Jesus says, go into the inner room, and your father, who sees in secret, same exact language, will reward you in secret.
[01:02:24] Speaker B: Yeah. To that end, Pastor Timothy Keller used to say that if the only time you pray is in public or just with other believers, you don't really have a prayer life.
That ultimately, yeah, you must pray secretly and pray with other Christians and pray in the corporate gathering. But to pray secretly and to seek
[01:02:46] Speaker C: after your father and shameless plug there. For Timothy Keller's book on prayer.
[01:02:51] Speaker B: Yes. Absolutely.
[01:02:52] Speaker C: Excellent resource.
[01:02:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:02:55] Speaker A: And the thing is about prayer, and then we'll get towards wrapping up here.
It's a discipline, too. I mean, so, like. Oh, absolutely.
Fasting, you could go, well, you don't naturally fast. I mean, sometimes the day is busy and you're like, oh, man, I didn't eat breakfast or lunch today. That doesn't count, by the way. That does not count. You go eat something and then, you know, like, plan a spiritual fast.
But fasting tends to be something that's very on purpose.
I mean, in other words, we know it is, but prayer is that too. And we, I think, sometimes want to think of prayer as being spontaneous and spontaneous prayer is good and great.
Crying out to God in the midst of a moment or praying just while you're driving or whatever else. But prayer is a spiritual discipline. Just like reading God's word is a spiritual discipline or memorizing God's word is a spiritual discipline. And we do the spiritual disciplines. Even when we don't feel like doing the spiritual disciplines, we must. Because if we believe that God rewards in this life and the life to come those things, then we should go, I'm going to do that thing, even if I'm not feeling it in this moment.
[01:04:03] Speaker C: Yeah.
I would just say that the way that Scripture talks about prayer is a combination of focus and persistence.
Think of the persistent widow over and over and over again, focused on the same thing and persistent about it, or praying for 40 days. We're talking serious persistence, serious discipline.
One of the things I started doing a few years ago, I am jumping straight to the flesh here, but we can go back.
Because I grew up in a faithful church, but I didn't really know the value of prayer, which is a tragedy.
And a lot of these disciplines, just a shameless plug for parents to help their kids cultivate these, because they don't get easier to cultivate.
They get harder to cultivate when you already have patterns and rhythms as an adult. But anyway, a few years ago, a professor of mine just really encouraged a prayer journal, because in the past, I had been just, you know, well, in the morning I'll just start praying for whatever I think to pray for, which is not necessarily wrong. It certainly wasn't focused and it certainly wasn't persistent.
And so I started just keeping a prayer journal that I actually write down prayers. Not just the request, but actually write down the prayers.
And that's been so helpful for me and also beautiful in its own way because I get to go back and read prayers that the Lord answered.
And that's an incentive to keep coming back to the well.
And so I just encourage folks to start a prayer journal.
[01:05:31] Speaker A: Goodness, that's good. That's a good, practical one.
[01:05:33] Speaker B: Full disclosure I have. So to that end, I'll have a prayer journal. And, you know, you write some of these things, and they're prayers that, you know, hopefully maybe your kids read someday and they can encourage them or whatever the case may be. But the other side is I also have an electronic prayer journal that sometimes I use as my ugly prayers that I don't want anybody to read. This.
This is me and God.
[01:05:58] Speaker A: Password protected.
[01:06:00] Speaker B: That's right. We're wrestling it out.
And you know what? If that thing gets deleted, I am okay with that at the end of the day. But the reality is, you know, prayer is A discipline and a.
And what I mean is there are moments where it's going to be hard. There are moments where your mind is not going to concentrate. It's going to take a lot of effort. And then there are moments where it's just like the Lord will meet you in your time with him and it is rich and encouraging and life giving.
And you don't get to choose when those are.
And so pray, I think. Was it Charles Spurgeon that used to say, pray until you pray?
[01:06:42] Speaker C: Yeah. Right.
[01:06:43] Speaker A: That's good.
[01:06:44] Speaker B: Yeah. Just keep praying. Keep going. And so, you know, I think that's. That's part of it. The other thing is I would differentiate, like, times of concerted prayer, like what we're describing, journaling, being still before the Lord for extended periods of time, and then the praying without ceasing or which is really just practicing dependence. Lord, you know, I do this almost every time I walk into a counseling scenario. God, help.
Walking into something that's bigger than me. Please help. Please be present.
Use this situation for your good or for our good and your glory. Help.
Or whatever. I'm sitting down with my wife. Okay. Lord, help me to. We're going to talk about some scenario.
Help me to encourage her and not do what I could easily do, which is criticize or whatever the case may be.
[01:07:29] Speaker C: Right.
[01:07:30] Speaker B: And so to practice both of those is important. Yeah.
[01:07:34] Speaker A: It's good.
I have one more.
[01:07:36] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:07:37] Speaker A: That we didn't even mention to start with, but this is one of the spiritual disciplines, so we didn't. I've actually thought of like five more. Yeah. And this one. And I thought of this one because I was. I wanted to get back to the. Here's. What's. One that you've struggled with and. Or one that's been particularly special, meaningful. You've grown in something like that. So think on that for a sec. But the one I struggle with is the discipline of rest.
Sabbathing.
[01:08:01] Speaker C: I mentioned that.
[01:08:02] Speaker A: Resting.
[01:08:02] Speaker B: We did talk.
[01:08:03] Speaker A: Oh, did you mention that? Okay. It's been a while. We've been talking.
[01:08:06] Speaker C: Only an hour and seven minutes so far.
[01:08:08] Speaker A: But that's real.
[01:08:11] Speaker B: That is very real.
[01:08:12] Speaker A: And that's in God's word. And God himself prescribed. Yes. And God himself models it for us at the beginning of all things.
And yet I find it to be possibly the most difficult discipline for me. I think some people don't. And. Good. Fine, great.
[01:08:33] Speaker B: No, I think for our current moment, I think that is one that is incredibly difficult and in some ways bewildering because I've Talked to some younger men in our church and encouraged them to practice the Sabbath and to rest. And they'll come back and be like, well, actually, I got in trouble. I send some.
[01:08:52] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:08:52] Speaker B: Because I had idle hands.
[01:08:53] Speaker A: Yeah, right. And so. Yeah, well. So there's one thing is that rest is not being idle.
[01:08:59] Speaker C: It's not a sloth.
[01:08:59] Speaker A: Those are not equal terms.
[01:09:01] Speaker B: That's exactly right. Well, that's what I mean. We don't even know what rest means, right?
[01:09:04] Speaker A: Yeah, we're bad at it. Yeah, we're really bad at it. And that, I mean, again, so that God, like, you know, gives the commandment, remember the Sabbath, keep it holy.
Obviously, you know, we have some understanding of that now that the way the Israel was a Sabbath day's journey and stuff. Like, we don't go, well, then you're not allowed to walk this amount of distance or something. Or we don't think about it that way.
But we do carry that command to practice rest.
And ideally, I think a day of rest, frankly.
And, man, I love being productive. I love being productive. And I derive a lot of my sense of worth sometimes as a man, a husband, father, from what I can show that I produced.
And again, not always just in the toil and the grind, sometimes just work that I really like doing.
It feels really good to be productive.
And while I do think rest can be an active thing, I mean, in other words, it's not like you just try to, like, lay still for 24 hours, you know, or something, right?
Resting from your labor is the idea. You can be active while you're resting, moving and stuff, doing things. But the idea of stepping back from the infinite toil. I mean, we're right now in Ecclesiastes, right? And this is just all up in that it is stepping back from the infinite toil intentionally. Because so it's this again, it's the physical.
Like, you do a physical thing, and it reminds you mentally, spiritually, of something. That's true. Namely that it's what Solomon says in Ecclesiastes, like, what comes of all your toil, right? You could toil more and more and more and more. And ultimately you're but dust. Your days are as grass, as the flower of the field. So you flourish, and the place thereof remembers it no more. Right?
And you leave all the fruits of your toil to someone, and they might use it wisely, or they may fritter it away.
And that's not to be totally depressing or to say don't work, but rest actually is a reminder that purely the fruit of your work is not the only thing.
That's not the essence right now.
[01:11:29] Speaker B: In part of the preparation for yesterday's sermon, I was reading about how we as Americans relate to work. And the issue we have in that really work is our sense of fulfillment. It's kind of the North Star to give meaning to the American way of life. And in fact, what happens is we get on the treadmill and we get so focused on productivity that it is the treadmill that we run on. And it's not even really to be productive anymore. It's just to keep pace with everyone else. Because if you don't produce and you remain whatever that little standard is, it's to fall off the back of the treadmill into oblivion. Like you just don't matter. And so you've got to continue to make something happen.
[01:12:15] Speaker A: Gotta hustle. Gotta hustle.
[01:12:16] Speaker B: That's right.
Because otherwise you're just not going to be noticed. You're not going to matter.
[01:12:21] Speaker C: We need to do a whole episode on this.
[01:12:23] Speaker B: Yeah. Rest is something that says, hey, God sees. And actually his reward is what matters. And that's so antithetical to the American way of life.
[01:12:35] Speaker A: Yeah, no kidding. I agree. We should. We should.
[01:12:37] Speaker C: I just want to make one comment. I think one of the reasons many people don't rest is because they love money.
[01:12:42] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, no doubt.
[01:12:44] Speaker C: I think if we love money a little less, we'd be okay to rest a little more.
[01:12:48] Speaker A: Good. Wow. Okay, so that's. We'll just have to go back and re. Listen to this segment for the full episode. We do. And dive in some more on that one. Yeah, that's good. But that was one that I didn't want to leave off, frankly, A. Because it's an important discipline. And I would encourage ourselves and all our people to press in to practicing the discipline of rest.
Holy rest again. God on the seventh day, rested from all his works. Why? Because he was tired. He was wore out.
[01:13:16] Speaker C: No, please do that.
[01:13:17] Speaker A: So, yeah, so do that.
And then I wanted to hear from you guys and then we'll wrap up a discipline that either one or the other has been a really a big struggle and. Or one that has been particularly fruitful, rewarding, meaningful in recent days.
[01:13:36] Speaker C: The rewarding one has certainly been prayer journaling. I don't get that perfect every day, but more days than not, that's delight to the soul and experience God more personally and over the long term. I've been journaling now for three years, and so I got three years of things I Can look back on.
The difficult one, I think, is fasting. Generally.
I didn't even know grow up. I never even heard that Christians fasted until I was in college.
And so I did it quite a bit in college because it was communal fasting. Since then, not great.
But July is going to be different.
[01:14:16] Speaker B: There you go.
For me, I mean, probably the rewarding one recently is Bible memory.
There's been just some really meaningful verses that I have, apart from what we're doing at the church, just in my own quiet time as I'm reading and studying and seeing. Yeah, I want that one. I need to memorize that and hide that in my heart.
That was good for my soul to be reminded of that truth. And I want to come back to it.
I think the challenging one, and we haven't even talked about this, I think it's challenging for me personally, I think it's challenging for all of us.
But confession, you want to watch a group of men squirm, let's talk about sin. Get them in a room and say, confess to one another your sins.
And so that is one that, you know, I do try to pursue with a certain set of people and a certain. Obviously my wife and a couple of other key friends, but, you know, they have the permission to ask me anything.
But confession is hard. And it is hard because it confronts every one of us in our place of pride. We like to look better than we are. And so that would be one.
[01:15:32] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a good one.
[01:15:34] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:15:35] Speaker A: That should just be all of ours, probably.
But no, I don't think anybody finds confession easy.
[01:15:41] Speaker B: It's not fun.
[01:15:41] Speaker A: Which is, again, which is why you should just implement it as a regular discipline. And then it may not ever be easy. But as is true with all the spiritual disciplines, that at least there's less friction as you do it more and you create sort of a way. It's like a path, you know, that gets worn. And like, at least I know that path, even though it's hard to go down it.
I'll just say for me, rewarding, I would say same Scripture memory.
Like I said, so many scriptures. I was telling my son this just this past week as I was encouraging him to memorize Scripture. So many scriptures that I've memorized often through music, God will bring to mind in the midst of situations. Sometimes it's sin or temptation, sometimes it's just.
It comes into my head or heart and I'm just rejoicing in the Lord because of this particular passage. And so that. And then memorizing this summer with our kids, man.
My little four year old doing the hand motions has its own little built in reward in this life right now is watching my kids memorize the scripture and all be better than me at it, man. That's an immense blessing.
[01:16:51] Speaker C: We should be more excited that our kids have memorized the verse than they hit a home run, dude.
Okay, keep going.
[01:16:56] Speaker A: Yeah, so, and then challenge one I already mentioned that is is rest. I would say that one is super hard for me and I am failing regularly at it, but am at least recognizing that I'm need to be.
[01:17:11] Speaker B: At least you're aware of your failure.
[01:17:13] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm growing. I need to be growing and I'm. Yeah. Okay, so that's there. There you go. There's confession.
[01:17:18] Speaker B: That's good.
[01:17:18] Speaker A: Did a confession right there. I like it, I like it. So, okay, closing thoughts and then we'll wrap up.
[01:17:24] Speaker B: Yeah, closing thoughts. So this is Jerry Bridges, the Discipline of Grace. Fantastic little book.
[01:17:31] Speaker C: Nice title too.
[01:17:33] Speaker B: And excellent title. One of the things that I love. I'll just read this quote. He's talking, he says the passive approach to grace and talks about the essence of the passive view.
In fairness to those who teach this view of sanctification, they would call it the faith approach is summed up in a statement that goes something like. This man's part is to trust, God's part is to work.
And that he fundamentally disagrees. He says this. We are not passive in the pursuit of holiness. We are called to love. We are called to clothe ourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience out of Colossians 3:12. But we do all of this not from legalism, but an utter dependence on him who gives us strength. And I think that sums up so well. What I want for myself, what I want for you guys, what I want for the church at Riverview, that we would be a people who are not passive and just throw our hands up and say, well, the spiritual disciplines are hard and so grace is good and let's just coast. But to say no, God has good things for us and calls us and invites us to know him more, to love him more, to walk more deeply with Him. And so let's press in, let's do the hard things, let's read the word, let's memorize it, let's practice confession, let's do hard Sabbath rest so that we might walk more closely with Him.
[01:18:56] Speaker A: Good.
[01:18:57] Speaker C: And might we stop saying we're too busy and start saying we just haven't prioritized the right things that will fit
[01:19:04] Speaker B: perfectly on the Sabbath episode.
[01:19:06] Speaker A: Nice.
Good. Well, we hope this has been encouraging to you.
Recognize that implementing disciplines, spiritual disciplines, is a thing that you are not going to do perfectly. And that should not be that truth should not stop you from doing it anyways.
So press into those things.
Come talk to us about them, talk to encourage one another in them in your life groups and with the goal again that we grow up in godliness and experience the the benefits, rewards and fruits of that in this life and the life to come. Until next time, further up and further in. We'll see you soon.
[01:20:02] Speaker C: Sam.
Ra.
Ram.
Sam.
